Topic: I knew it! Castlevania: Lords of Shadow!(SPOILERS HERE, PLZ USE THE SPOILER TAG)

[beingthehero]

I wonder if I could consider CV3, CV Adventure, SCIV, Haunted Castle, CV X68k, and Dracula X clones of CV1.

[Husky]

Much like with everything, time and tastes change, unfortunetly with each generation console, also comes a new generation of gamers, so companies like Konami have to evolve games, which takes time and money, But when you have an established franchise like castlevania, you can cut a few corners, like A: What kind of game will this be? (the answer is simple its a "Dark" Adventure most of the time), and b: What kind of enemies with we have (answer: Vampires & other Monsters of mythology.)
 so now you have a good part of the game what comes next is not so easy you have story to write, and the design of the characters, and monsters. and play engine, so what happens is they look at games of this style and say well what kinds of games generate more money, and will fit our series general concept, in the case of LoS they said well games like gods of war, and uncharted, and fable. and you go from there.

Its not that Konami dosen't listen to its fanbase, but they try to increase it.
the first decade of castlevania was mostly side scrolling action adventure (with the exception of Simon's Quest ) and we loved it, but towards the release of the Snes ver of Dracula X Sales started dropping cause of the stale gameplay style.
Which brings us to the most of castlevania's second decade FREE roaming  (both 3-d & 2-d) or as its become called METROIDVANIA, and now we have an issue, that style of game after 10 years starts to feel stale, so konami continues to try to re-invent the series, but it has 2 problems 1st they are limited in the story line as per the main plot (Belmonts and friends Vs. Dracula) with the supposed Drac is supposed to rise every 100 years, has run out of the time line, 2 the "cannon" has changed so much that they need to re do the story

enter LoS a fresh start with a new style (or another attempt to get 3-d right) that attemps to keep the connection of the series, personally I have mixed feelings about LoS, but I understand Konami is a business and I understand gaming trends seem to change every decade or so. 

[crisis]

LoS was an amalgam of a bunch of different games. Rather than trying to do anything different, they (MS) just fused several games together (God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, Prince of Persia, etc.), gave it a Hollywood-like presentation & called it Castlevania. If this formula will last remains to be seen, but what a lot of peoples' beef with this whole thing is that they shamelessly rebooted the entire series when it hasn't even reached it's conclusion yet (which probably could've/should've happened by now). Theoretically, the classic canon can be completed with about 3 or so more games, but I could think of at least 7 or 8 more they can make. To those that say the timeline is bloated, why are you ignoring that 300 year period that has NO games? Anything can happen during that time, and it pisses the hell out of me that with a setup the likes of Lament, the Belmonts will become such powerful killing machines so much that the Church refuses aid & exiles them from the country, we will probably never see any follow-up games in those centuries. Each game could've been developed by a different team like the old days, without stepping on another team's shoes with what they have planned. They can even pull an OoE and not even declare a set year, the prologue can say something like "Sometime in the middle 12th century.."

Now THAT'S wasted potential.


I'm not disagreeing with the notion of a reboot, it was inevitable & everyone here knows that. It's just that it happened too fast & is another example of Konami hopping on the "reboot train" that a lot of companies have been doing nowadays. They didn't even show any respect towards the classic canon just by absolutely ignoring the 25th Anniversary and shitting on us loyal fans [with Harmony of Despair]. I don't understand how anyone can be okay with these actions.

[Husky]

Oh so true I did forget about the 300 year span after lament, and yeah I hate there is no 25th anny celebration, of some kind, and yeah HoD was kinda a slap in the face....

[darkwzrd4]

Oh so true I did forget about the 300 year span after lament, and yeah I hate there is no 25th anny celebration, of some kind, and yeah HoD was kinda a slap in the face....

It's like they alienated those of us who were fans of the existing timeline and then said f*&k you when they released Harmony of Despair.  As I've said many times, we only need three more games for the old timeline (the bare minimum).  Here's what they should entail:

• The gap between LoI and CV3 (either Dracula's rise to power and/or what the Belmonts are up to during that period)
• After SotN/Before OoE. Why the Belmonts can't touch the whip until 1999
• The Demon Castle War (1999 game where Dracula is defeated once and for all and the castle is sealed in the solar eclipse)

There could be more, but as I've said, these are the bare minimum to give the timeline closure.

[A-Yty]

Creating clones of the one succesfull game for more then ten years and two medocre (gameplai-wise) entries in the series is a "right track"?

Compared to a total reboot of pretty much everything, yes. At last that had more potential for development through trial and error.

I'm not saying that a reboot wasn't inevitable (because it was). I'm not saying change is bad or inevitable. I'm saying fixing the problem through complete change isn't a solution. It's very shortsighted. LoS was more like fixing the problem with a mallet instead of a wrench.

And yeah, what IGA was doing didn't completely work. But I know the guy was doing his best. He was writing stories even though he admitted he's not that good at it. I think that means he was working on too many areas at once. And he admitted that his 3D Vanias had failed. Konami benefited from his introspection and they kept hiring him. But he's not the only option available for doing everything he has done while steering this series. There is no need to use him as some sort of boogeyman every time the question of how a CV game should be is raised.

[Sumac]

I wonder if I could consider CV3, CV Adventure, SCIV, Haunted Castle, CV X68k, and Dracula X clones of CV1.

Nope. They have different presentation, different gameplay ideas and while derived from common source they are differ from each other enough to not to be considered clones.
To put it simple - none of this games tries to emulate CV1 on a big scale. Each has differences - gameplay and artistic ones, each has put a spin on the original formula. From metoridvanias hoard the only game that really stand out is COTM and SOTN as a progenitor of the metroidvanias. Others are more or less shadows of the SOTN so to speak.

I agree with what you said, Husky, with one monor remark:

I have mixed feelings about LoS, but I understand Konami is a business and I understand gaming trends seem to change every decade or so.

I think gaming tends changes every 5 years or so. And even that depends on the platforms in question. Nowadays of course it is much simplier, thnaks to unification of the platforms.

To those that say the timeline is bloated, why are you ignoring that 300 year period that has NO games?

Old Castlevania storyline has much more galring issues than this one.

They can even pull an OoE and not even declare a set year, the prologue can say something like "Sometime in the middle 12th century.."

Old timeline is already confused in itself with all "gaiden-non-gaiden" games, reamkes and holes. Adding more of a 1xxx games would kill the last integrity that old timeline has.

It's like they alienated those of us who were fans of the existing timeline and then said f*&k you when they released Harmony of Despair.  As I've said many times, we only need three more games for the old timeline (the bare minimum).  Here's what they should entail:
1) The gap between LoI and CV3 (either Dracula's rise to power and/or what the Belmonts are up to during that period)
2) After SotN/Before OoE. Why the Belmonts can't touch the whip until 1999
3) The Demon Castle War (1999 game where Dracula is defeated once and for all and the castle is sealed in the solar eclipse)

Old timeline need only one final game - that is 1999 Demon Castle War.
Gap between LOI and CV3 is meaningless and what kind of game you'll need to cover three centuries?
After SOTN before OOE is also needless. This question could be answered with the small blurb in 1999 game. Not considering that this question should have been answered as far as AOS...but that's IGA storytelling for you.

Compared to a total reboot of pretty much everything, yes. At last that had more potential for development through trial and error.

Nope. Cloning only leads to stagnation. There is no trial and error, when every single game is borrowing like 70% of foundation from original. Only some little things woill changes from game to game. Thatis not progress or evolution. Rampant copypasting doesn't help either.
And I already said that it has another major problem:

Some fans eventualy evolve into close minded pond that think that "cloning and self-repeating" is the only way for the franchise to exist. Any changes and additions generally will be meet with heavy criticism and discourage developers to add new things to the formula and eventually leads to further stagnation of the series.

LoS was more like fixing the problem with a mallet instead of a wrench.

I think the series was already at the point where mallet was the most appropriate tool to fix it.

But I know the guy was doing his best. He was writing stories even though he admitted he's not that good at it. I think that means he was working on too many areas at once.

Doing best =/= good result.
And if he admitted himself that he sucks at writing he should've hired someone who was good at it. Ot at least consult someone who could revise his ideas and add something new.
If someone admits that his not good at something and instead of taking some help, that person continue to do mediocre work - than it is his problem though and thorough. No matter how much sugar-coating you would put onto the issue.

Konami benefited from his introspection and they kept hiring him.

Considering what series have become under his helm, I'm not sure what to understand under the word "benefiting".

There is no need to use him as some sort of boogeyman every time the question of how a CV game should be is raised.

No one uses his as a boogeyman.
IGA done a good job in the begining. He tried different things and generally succeded. However in the end Castlevania became self-cloning series with underwritten story and repetitive gameplay. Of course it's not entirely his fault, but in the end he was in charge of the series and many things could be more different and interesting if could take certain risks and some help on the road.

[crisis]

Old Castlevania storyline has much more galring issues than this one.

Uh not really. Me and many others have no problem with the canon..

Old timeline is already confused in itself with all "gaiden-non-gaiden" games, reamkes and holes. Adding more of a 1xxx games would kill the last integrity that old timeline has.

Who is confused? What is so confusing? Dracula resurrects 100 years with some exceptions, Belmont/other hero rises to stop him & his lackeys. Explain to us what you don't understand? (fyi almost every fictional series has or will have plotholes here & there, get over it)

Old timeline need only one final game - that is 1999 Demon Castle War.

there's that, and a 1897 game covering Bram Stoker's Dracula would be nice. Also, how about a game starring Soleiyu Belmont? Then there's a game that could explain the passing of VK from Belmont to Morris. How about a game starring Leon's grandson? NO ITS TOO CONFUSINGG

Gap between LOI and CV3 is meaningless and what kind of game you'll need to cover three centuries?

You, sir, have no imagination. It's called "thinking outside the box," my friend, something MercurySteam needs to learn to do if they don't want all these comparisons to everything else besides Castlevania.


I feel like I'm debating with Dave Cox with all this bashing of "old castlevania." Is Sumac Dave Cox in disguise or something?

[Flame]

Yknow, I realized. Why do we always complain about Castlevania reusing sprites, when Mega Man does the same thing? Not as much, but it still does it.

[C Belmont]

Old timeline is already confused in itself with all "gaiden-non-gaiden" games, reamkes and holes. Adding more of a 1xxx games would kill the last integrity that old timeline has

So how is a reboot which intentionally contradicts the old timeline rather than use it as a base meant to help un-confuse things then? it doesn't seem all that more helpfull than making another Gaiden game.

[thernz]

Yknow, I realized. Why do we always complain about Castlevania reusing sprites, when Mega Man does the same thing? Not as much, but it still does it.

mega man doesn't reuse the sprites when they're over 10 years old (barring mm9 and ilk), and the sprites are reused in a matter that retains style consistency

plus, before sotn (and after the nes saga), castlevania set a standard to have new sprites, but now the titles have divulged into even reusing backgrounds, so it seems like they're progressively reusing more and more, in worse ways

[Vrakanox]

It's like they alienated those of us who were fans of the existing timeline and then said f*&k you when they released Harmony of Despair.  As I've said many times, we only need three more games for the old timeline (the bare minimum).  Here's what they should entail:

• The gap between LoI and CV3 (either Dracula's rise to power and/or what the Belmonts are up to during that period)
• After SotN/Before OoE. Why the Belmonts can't touch the whip until 1999
• The Demon Castle War (1999 game where Dracula is defeated once and for all and the castle is sealed in the solar eclipse)

There could be more, but as I've said, these are the bare minimum to give the timeline closure.

This guy REALLY hit the nail on the head and this is what I've been saying to people for years. Especially with numbers two and three, those absolutely need to be made before I can consider the old timeline to be complete. Something big happened after SotN to cause the Belmonts to not be able to wield the Vampire Killer and I need to know how that went down.

As far as the storyline and which was better. I don't really care but I vastly prefer Laments, Bram Stoker like approach, it was much more relaxed than the Lords of Shadow,

(click to show/hide)

Gabriel's best bud is the Grim Reaper and he summoned Satan and Belmont is Dracula

or whatever shit Patrick Stewart was spewing at the end of that game.

[A-Yty]

Sumac, you're saying LoS was a better alternative to taking your time to figure out everything that had been going wrong and right after SotN (arguably the turning point of Castlevania and the apex of its successs) and that's where I personally disagree. There are other tools between the mallet and the wrench.

LoS was taking the easy way out. They just created this Frankenstein's Game thing while the fate of the original continuity was (and still is) unclear. That was a message, regardless if you loved or hated Metroidvania or Classicvania or something else. Add the ignoring of the 25th anniversary to that mix and what do you have? I think Konami is horribly neglecting their series, which is part of the reason they had to "resort" to LoS.

Even if LoS sold well, it approached the problem in a way that is not a permanent solution. If they're smart, they'll finish and then reboot the timeline in a proper manner.

[The Silverlord]

No one uses his as a boogeyman.

Do a little dance, make a little love, getting down tonight.

Modern-day Lords of Shadow 2 should feature a 1970's disco flashback scene (or just a 1970's club), IGA character gettin' it down on the dance floor, with some flare trousers and cowboy hat on.  Hell, IGA could be the protagonist.  Make it an open-world affair like GTA, vampire slaying in 1970's Los Angeles.

[A-Yty]

Do I smell an awesome dance spinoff game idea?