Topic: Gametrailers' Castlevania Retrospective

[crisis]

i personally like BR's logo



the font itself infuses the Castlevania spirit & is very memorable

[DragonsAndCarpetBags]

Belmont's Revenge works well with the painting. I like the original Adventure as well. I don't mind that they reused the logos for Rebirth I just think it needs tweaking.

[Valtiel]

Get lost.

Try to put what I said in context.

I've not said SotN is terrible; I've said is overrated. And for a game that is by many held up as an AAA+ cum laude game it's very easy to be overrated. I'm replaying SotN; it's a very good game, and I love some of its bits. However, there's a massive amount of flaws in it:

- Level design: SotN introduces the Metroidvania formula without perfecting it. In short, Metroid works better because it's consistent. SotN is an hot mess because navigation between the different parts of the palace is horribly disconnected. You go from great pieces like the library or the catacombs to the caves to the stairs to the hallway in a matter of... seconds.
Classicvania games were built upon the idea of "stages"; each stage being consistent and possibly leading to something (you start in a pretty generic graveyard area then climb a hill then reach a mausoleum etc). There is a "narrative" in the stage; it's consistent. SotN essentially designs areas according to their label, and almost never does actually anything to *describe* the area in question.
You now are in the "marble corridor with axe lords area": cue an endless repetition of the tileset filled with monsters. It's a corridor-based design that for the most part leads nowhere and sucks a lot out of the experience. Dracula's Castle doesn't really feel like a place at all; it's incredibly game-ish level design and while it does work in many ways, I still feel that Castlevania needs to wove the narrative in its level design. LoS did this very well, and CotM did it a whole lot better than SotN. I'd simply want to see some variation inside the various tematic tileset: the missed opportunity is huge here, and the ending feeling is that this corridor is entirely identical to itself and eventually leads to another area transition corridor that leads to a corridor. Once again, play Odin Sphere: it's a corridor brawler that doesn't give up on delivering beautiful and *evolving* setpieces, something that SotN doesn't even attempt. And that's why when you get to places like the top of the towers or the clock you face blows off: it feels like you actually gotten somewhere, that this place is a *place* but it's only good for contrast with the rest. The entire game should be like that.

- the level up design: I love RPGs. It's my favourite genre. I completely bloody love RPGs. I want a level up system in the next LoS if possible.
But SotN is a disaster. You're taking 1 damage per hit from stuff in 50% of the castle in a matter of 45 minutes, wearing the second armor upgrade you got. Sure, there's some decent scaling later on, but CV games should never be trivial. CotM has the same mechanic but it applies it with more wisdom. SotN is simply way too easy.

- the weapon system: this isn't a "CV without a whip = fail" argument, but the entire weapon system in SotN feels lackluster. None of the weapons Alucard gets feels as cool as the whip or chain; they're simply underused. The game starts strong by highlighting the difference between something like daggers and swords (the morning star also feels fresh). But as you proceed on and see that 80% of the weapons in the game feel the same the oomph is gone. Cue CotM, and what they did with the whip, and you see why SotN misses out on fun.

- Story: CV never had really good storytelling, but it had great atmosphere. You could imagine those storylines more than seeing them told. It played with your imagination. I was hooked as a kid. SotN boldly implemented quite a bit of voiceover, but its enfasis on exposition (as sparce and disconnected as it felt) sort of sucked something from the fantasy. It wasn't you and Belmont anymore, going through a story told by its environments more than its text; you were stumbling in people (well, 3 people) randomly while running around in the castle for no apparent reason, and the story sort of just got in the way. It's probably a personal remark, but once again later games did it much better.


That's my entire point on it being overrated. It's a good game, a great game even, but I see it as a B grade Castlevania because the good things it introduced were almost universally done better in its future iterations, and the bad things it introduced still plague us today. One thing it still has going for it is its colossal size: it's a huge game full of things to find, loot, equip and level up. But I'm playing SotN and CotM at the same time and I can't help but feeling CotM is the superior game by a STRONG margin. And I hate playing on handhelds - heck, if anything I love dipping in SotN because of how comfortable the controls feel.

[Ahasverus]

I agree with Valtiel, SOTN is the most overrated thing in CV history, the game is good but nostalgia factor makes people believe is he perfection made game. And it's, at its core, no more than a Metroid clone, and a shameless one. Oh the irony.

Iga says:
"I can't play Symphony of the Night, I'm afraid I'm going the hundreds of glitches we left in"

IGA says:
"Symphony of the night is the perfect game"

Don't try to argue with Uzo he's too despective sometimes but don't take it seriously he's just joking

[Kale]

Meh, I was never really one to call it a metroid clone. Since I believe it had Metroid things in it, like Metroid had Mario things in it. OMG SAMUS CAN JUMP!

I mean, there were quite a few good things in it that I'm sure was not in Metroid despite not really big on Metroid games. Like the spells and how they are learned and used. Which is basically finding out  yourself, but yet... you can learn it at the beginning of the game if you wished.
Metroid didn't have the RPG aspects of SotN either, afaik anyway.

I have to ask, why do people call it Metroidvania? Aside from the free roam aspect of it?

[SomaCruz90]

Eww, CotM. It's like a more generic version of SotN right down to the "sorta-kinda-not-quite" box art mimicking Ayami Kojima. The DSS system was a good idea, but holy hell good luck obtaining it, since the drops are so random and you have no idea which monster drops what. And heck, even when you get the cards, the game doesn't even tell you what they do. Often times I'd activate them, some subtle effect would happen, and I'd stare at the screen with an arched eyebrow.

And this random drop thing goes to the whole game. I had a shit-ton of leather armor, but barely any damn potions. Good game design there, Konami.

SotN is similar to Metroid in level design, but it works because the areas are so easily identifiable with clear divisions. Its a game so well-designed the developers had the foresight for the players to explore the entire castle UPSIDE DOWN. CotM, on the other hand, a bunch of jumbled-up rooms that all kind of bled into one another, and the limited background tile set made for lots of repetition. Even WITH the warps, there's a lot of fricken' backtracking, so get ready to CONSTANTLY double tap to do your little two-frames of animation dash, because Nathan Graves has the slowest walk of all-time.

I can see how Classicvania fans would like it though. Stiff controls, whip action, slow walk, uneven difficulty: yep, sounds like Castlevania!

Cool Dracula battle though.

[Kale]

I love cotm... but having a slow walk... as opposed to have a slow run?

[Valtiel]

Eww, CotM. It's like a more generic version of SotN

Good god how is that even possible  ?

[SomaCruz90]

Good god how is that even possible  ?

I imagine the team looked at SotN and thought, "Well, people sure like this game, but we don't have the talent or budget to do a real sequel. So we'll just make everything really dark, so no one will ever know! Can we get Ayami Kojima back?"

"Sorry, out of the budget range!"

"Whatever, I know this guy on DeviantArt who kinda sorta draws like him, its just as good! Speaking of drawing, there's a lot of tiles here. Did we get those tile artists from SotN?"

"Sorry, out of the budget range!"

"Whatever, we can just copy and paste bricks and level motifs throughout the entire game, its just as good! Man, there's an incredible amount of enemy sprites in SotN...did we get thos--"

"Sir, seriously, we don't have th--"

"Yeah yeah yeah, whatever, I gotta a better idea anyway. LIVING ARMORS. LIVING ARMORS EVERYWHERE!"

and so on and so forth

[Valtiel]

I imagine the team looked at SotN and thought, "Well, people sure like this game, but we don't have the talent or budget to do a real sequel. So we'll just make everything really dark, so no one will ever know! Can we get Ayami Kojima back?"

"Sorry, out of the budget range!"

"Whatever, I know this guy on DeviantArt who kinda sorta draws like him, its just as good! Speaking of drawing, there's a lot of tiles here. Did we get those tile artists from SotN?"

"Sorry, out of the budget range!"

"Whatever, we can just copy and paste bricks and level motifs throughout the entire game, its just as good! Man, there's an incredible amount of enemy sprites in SotN...did we get thos--"

"Sir, seriously, we don't have th--"

"Yeah yeah yeah, whatever, I gotta a better idea anyway. LIVING ARMORS. LIVING ARMORS EVERYWHERE!"

and so on and so forth

Cough. Someone will rip you to shreds for that .


I don't know, CotM is part of that generation of Castlevania games that enrage me as a 2D game fan because they scream of untapped potential (don't make me start again on Princess Crown/Odin Sphere and the like), but in an environment where most CV games were the exact same thing over and over, CotM absolutely NAILED the mechanics and level design. Its Castle has SotN's on its knees in terms of consistency and atmosphere (sadly, not in size), and the DSS system is still the best subsystem on the handheld CV games IMHO.

[Valtiel]

Just wanted to link this:

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=8100261&publicUserId=5379721

to explain the relevance of the OS comparisons. IGA has been telling us forever that 2D console Castlevanias would be "too expensive". It's a lie that has to die. We deserve an high quality 2D CV on home consoles.

[Kale]

Hah.... I never knew Odin Sphere was skeletal animation. But I agree. they do look good. Only problem with them is that if you want to change a stance, you have to draw the sheild/arm/etc again for that angle.

But yea, I've been looking into it. Looks cool, but it's pretty hard to get it looking right.

[Valtiel]

Hah.... I never knew Odin Sphere was skeletal animation. But I agree. they do look good. Only problem with them is that if you want to change a stance, you have to draw the sheild/arm/etc again for that angle.

But yea, I've been looking into it. Looks cool, but it's pretty hard to get it looking right.

Castlevania could easily get away with just fluid handdrawn animation a la Street Fighter 3. Imagine a new Castlevania title with a 2D style inspired by Gabriel's travelbook animation. Watercolor background, 60 fps. Glorious.

They just need to have the guts to do it.

[Alutwon]

Castlevania could easily get away with just fluid handdrawn animation a la Street Fighter 3. Imagine a new Castlevania title with a 2D style inspired by Gabriel's travelbook animation. Watercolor background, 60 fps. Glorious.

They just need to have the guts to do it.

*Drools* that......would....be....amazing. Sigh we will never get something like that though, I doubt anyone at Konami has the vision.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Hah.... I never knew Odin Sphere was skeletal animation. But I agree. they do look good. Only problem with them is that if you want to change a stance, you have to draw the sheild/arm/etc again for that angle.

But yea, I've been looking into it. Looks cool, but it's pretty hard to get it looking right.

It's actually a bit easier than that.  Yes, you have to redraw that particular piece from a slightly different angle, but the way the artists do it is they actually have a spritesheet for that one part, with an anchor point.  It may sound complicated or difficult, but in Muramasa they have a sprite for, say, shoulderpads in a boss's armor.  The rotation and scaling is done on-the-fly so there's no redrawing, but there IS redrawing when there's another different animation, one that would require such shoulderpad to be, say, showing a radically different angle.  However, the overall work for these details is easier to do than redrawing the entire body (which would be what you would have to do in traditional animation), and also allows customization of such body parts by having one replace it in the same spot.

Although I'm not all that fond of the technique, Odin Sphere and Muramasa have shown that it makes for some brilliant-looking animations.  Those games have very low level design, though... it's usually just a long corridor in which enemies randomly show up.  Castlevania has the whole platforming aspect.  I suppose that if CV did it that way, it would end up looking like the beautiful backgrounds of Donkey Kong Country, with the designs of CV, and the animation style of Muramasa.

Now THAT, plus some CV rockin' music, would make for a great CV title.