Topic: Do the Metroidvania's Get Any Better?

[SilentCircuit]

I don't understand these people at all. It's easily my least favorite entry in the series from what I've played so far.

I got a lot of shit a few weeks ago on Facebook for suggesting Richter's "Die monster! You don't belong in this world!" line was actually in reference to SotN itself, and that Dracula's lines was metaphorical for the state of the Castlevania series. :p

I like Symphony of the Night a lot, but it is very easy compared to the other games.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

I suppose so.

It's funny though, because most of the time I can at least understand what other people like about games that I didn't enjoy, or why something I like may not appeal to them. I was really struggling though to see why anyone would enjoy SotN's gameplay, or even go as far as to put it on "Greatest Games of All Time" lists.

Do you enjoy any games with a lot of exploration? Metroid, anything like that? A lot of modern 3D games have an exploration element as well to save dev time and cost in creating tons of areas, so they make large interconnected areas which you have to sometimes backtrack through and such.

[thernz]

I think it just doesn't connect to your tastes. SoTN's gameplay's best aspects aren't in the combat. Well, aspects of its best traits are in the combat, but they express a different meaning. You basically have a wealth of weapons to encourage exploration. It isn't so good from a combat point of view, because they're all the same, but the team was clearly aiming for an experience centered on exploration. Hell, Alucard's physics are more fine-tuned for gracefully exploring the environment than engaging in combat.

The later ones try to create more of a balance, but I think that actually hinders some of them instead. SoTN is more focused and succeeds compared to something like Dawn, which befuddles itself with a myriad of combat options at the cost of exploration, but the actual options are usually weightless.

[Raxivace]

Do you enjoy any games with a lot of exploration? Metroid, anything like that? A lot of modern 3D games have an exploration element as well to save dev time and cost in creating tons of areas, so they make large interconnected areas which you have to sometimes backtrack through and such.

As I said in the OP, not really. I find exploration just for the sake of filling in a map incredibly dull and tedious. It was especially bad in the Inverted Castle, which was filled with easy enemies and nothing really happening until you get to Shaft/Dracula.

I know people like that kind of stuff, but I just don't understand why.

[Sumac]

It's funny though, because most of the time I can at least understand what other people like about games that I didn't enjoy, or why something I like may not appeal to them. I was really struggling though to see why anyone would enjoy SotN's gameplay, or even go as far as to put it on "Greatest Games of All Time" lists.

I find exploration just for the sake of filling in a map incredibly dull and tedious.

Absolutely agree.

I have the same feelings about SOTN.
The first time when I played it, I even couldn't finish it, so boring it became to me.
Only on the second attempt I managed to comlete this game, but once again I need to force myself to play throught the second castle.

The problem with SOTN is its balance and lack of any difficulty. Usually games that have leveling system try to stay attuned to the player's level. But SOTN is like "OK, player is super strong now, but I don't give a fuck". It's real strength in its visual and audio appeal and sense of novelty after previous games in the series. However, it quickly wears off, once you are get to second castle - probably one of the most lazy locations I ever encountered in video games. I mean, if it would be the same castle, but different backgrounds and enemies it would be bad, but having castle upsidedown? That's just WTF.

The worst part of it, that it seems developers stopped think about any balance at this point. You can quickly gain several levels RIGHT IN THE START OF THE 2nd Castle and practically nothing that you're about to encounter will be a serious threat to you. Bosses in the SOTN is another major failure. They look beautiful in the graphical terms, but tottaly fails as any serious obstacle. Magical subsystem is just another falw. Considering that the game is already disbalanced, thanks who whoever forgot that enemies should be leveled up or replaced for more powerful ones to accomodate to players experience, magical system just throws another thorn into already shhaky balance of the game.

Myriad of weapons and equipment does nothing. Why do you need all this different equipment, why do you need all this different weapons, if the game could be easily completed with simple "Alucard..." equipment and different enemy stats is just a "stats" in their entries, that realy doesn't affect anything that much? I know some people will say "but you can use different weapons to kill different enemies more easily". Maybe in actually balanced game, that could have been the case. But in SOTN it loses any meaning as soon as you gained sufficient level up - there is no actual need to change equipment / weapons if you could easily kill enemies with what you already have. Besides given akward menu design it easier not to change anything at all.
My design phylosophy is like this - if you put something in the game - it should be used. If you put two weapons in the game, than at some point player must use both of them. If you put dozen weapons in the game and there is no neccestity to use eleven, than, sorry, but your design sucks.

Exploration in this game...is flawed in a sense that exploration should be interesting, rewarding, give player new stuff to do, new objectives. But in SOTN as you get to the second castle...well...no objectives, since story doesn't reappear until the end, no reward - since you already powerful and have practically everything that you need to "progress" forward, no new stuff - since second castle is just upsidedown copy of the first one and since you already have everything by that point, there is simply nothing new to do. Just keep going forward because of...well story doesn't tell why you should be going forward. It also somehow forget to tell you where the castle came form and what the hell your objective is.

I think, it's quite too much flaws for supposedly one of "the greatest games of all times".

If anything other "metroidvanias" - particularly COTM, OOE and AOS improved on many flwas of the orginal, but sadly all of them were limited by the handheld hardware and "glorious" shadow of their source.

guh-hyuck

I assure you that they do not understand you either. Your neural pathways are just wired differently than theirs in obscure ways and there is nothing that can be done.

LOL. And they call LOS fans overly zealous.

Because it is one of the greatest games of all time, over 10 years later & it is still the best "metroidvania." Shame that you're in the minority that thinks otherwise

You should ashamed for telling someone, that he should be ashamed for having different opinion (from yours). 
SOTN is the greatest only because of its scope, being on the "big" console and being first "metroidvania" that set the pattern. I bet, if AOS was realised on the PS1 or PS2 with the same gameplay, but improved graphics and music, than it would overshadow SOTN on every account.

[beingthehero]

owned hard

[Successor The Cruel]

Reasons stated are why Symphony of the Night was never my favorite Metroidvania game. I thought people were pretty strange when they'd give me the equivalent of weird looks when I would tell them I like Aria of Sorrow and Harmony of Dissonance more. The second castle has its charms, but it's ultimately a failure to me, and quite a big one. I recently said in a topic that I like loose exploration like Metroid 1's, but Symphony's Inverted Castle goes beyond loose and becomes directionless. THERE ARE NO OBSTACLES ANYWHERE! So, basically, we go wherever we want and fight bad guys who can't do much to fight back. We also have no idea why we're there, or what we're trying to do there.

I really prefer the Harmony of Dissonance approach. People sometimes complain about that because they get confused, but I think that's part of playing a real exploration game. Both castles stay relevant together because we play the whole game going through both of them. Both have obstacles that impede our progress. I like how doing something in one castle affects the other castle and opens up new areas to explore in the other castle. I like how both castles are connected and work together. This is more captivating to me.

Some people like the level design in the Inverted Castle, but I think doing things like - super jump, then immediately turn into bat, then quickly turn into Alucard- over and over again are just frustrating and boring. Don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for Symphony of the Night. I've only been talking about the stuff I don't like about it (I actually recently made a post on my own forum about the stuff I do like about it). However, the design is exceedingly poor (if something can even be that) in too many areas for me to excuse.

[crisis]

You should ashamed for telling someone, that he should be ashamed for having different opinion (from yours).

This is coming from someone that gets butthurt when anyone here badmouths his precious LoS. Hypocrite much?
I didn't say he should be ashamed for not liking Symphony, I said it's a shame he doesn't enjoy it as much as everyone else, which puts him in the minority.

yeah, you're still on ignore Sumac, but unfortunately I can still see your inane posts when I'm not logged in. You really need to stop taking shots at me already.

I know people like that kind of stuff, but I just don't understand why.

When I first played Symphony, I instantly fell in love with it, just like every other Castlevania that came before (well, except for The Adventure). It's one of those rare games that I can excuse it's faults because it was very exciting to play at the time of it's release, and it contains elements that have still yet to be surpassed in modern metroidvanias. On the flip side, I can't understand how anyone can not like it, but as the old saying goes, to each his/her own..

[thernz]

I'm not sure what you mean by the exploration just being filling out a map. There are a handful of secret walls, lite puzzles, secret abilities (not relics), and etc. There are also a handful of small touches and unique rooms. The game path of progression also tends to branch out so there's a sense of replay value of tackling different areas in different order (not really). Inverted castle is way too loose though. I still prefer it to other end areas for its novelty. It just feels the most different, even though I don't like it that much. Most of the metrovanias have weak end-games. I rather have something that subverts conventional design, with the strange navigation. I also had problems with the inverted castle but not the other metrovania end-games so idk what you guys are talking about difficulty. There's a lot more tense claustrophobic and dense enemy placement imo (not in all areas). ;____;

Beyond that, I found the other end games, Portrait, Dawn, Aria pretty boring. Order was great though. Except its final final area really sucked, but it's more like a minor blemish.

What I am really asking is for examples of the type of exploration you like because I am just curious, Raxivace.

[TheouAegis]

For me, it lost its fun when I stopped playing it for a bit and then, when I went back to playing it, couldn't figure out where the fuck I was supposed to go because I forgot what the hell it was I was doing up till that point.

[Puwexil]

Symphony and Harmony are still the only Castlevanias where I've truly and honestly gotten lost the first time going through them. At the time, it was frustrating, but in retrospect it's a quality I find endearing and would like to see more of in the design of these games.

[uzo]

SotN has yet to be surpassed in visual quality and level design. Some may argue OST quality as well. Since level design and exploration go hand in hand, this sets it apart from the rest by far.

It is still king.

[beingthehero]

I agree that the tedium of the Inverted Castle weighs on me as well, but I do appreciate just how different the atmosphere feels for each area compared to the equivalent in Dracula's Castle. Some, like the Inverted Coliseum and the Inverted Library are completely and utterly different in terms of atmosphere from their original versions, and the respective music goes a long way in helping that.

Also yeah, the music is still king in this game. Yamane actually got a little worse later on when she focused on more pop-ish songs and I believe she said that now she wouldn't put music like Dance of Pales in the game because it's not suitable for an action game. I thought the contrast between the music and the fast-paced nature of the game itself was a great compliment.

[Sumac]

There are a handful of secret walls, lite puzzles, secret abilities (not relics), and etc. There are also a handful of small touches and unique rooms. The game path of progression also tends to branch out so there's a sense of replay value of tackling different areas in different order (not really).

It's only unique on the first playthrough sadly.

SotN has yet to be surpassed in visual quality and level design.

If we talk about level design as in "how much details were put into the background", than yes it unsurpassed. If we talk about actual level design, than I'd say that AOS was on par with SOTN.

Also yeah, the music is still king in this game. Yamane actually got a little worse later on when she focused on more pop-ish songs and I believe she said that now she wouldn't put music like Dance of Pales in the game because it's not suitable for an action game.

I think her absolute best soundtrack was LOI's one. SOTN was good, but there were too much of everything and ultimately it created a strange combination. It doesn't give that unified picture feeling, IMO.

yeah, you're still on ignore Sumac, but unfortunately I can still see your inane posts when I'm not logged in. You really need to stop taking shots at me already.

Oh my!! You missed me so much that decided to read my "inane" posts? 
And about "inane" - that comes from someone who mostly just posts "LOS is BAD, durrr". Hypocrite much? 
And don't worry - I don't have personal agenda against you. I rarely have agendas against  bothersome flies.

[Successor The Cruel]

I agree that the tedium of the Inverted Castle weighs on me as well, but I do appreciate just how different the atmosphere feels for each area compared to the equivalent in Dracula's Castle. Some, like the Inverted Coliseum and the Inverted Library are completely and utterly different in terms of atmosphere from their original versions, and the respective music goes a long way in helping that.

This is very true. I really like how different the atmospheres of the areas feel, even if all the devs usually did to them was change the music themes and the coloring. I like the differences in the areas more in Symphony than I do Harmony. There was stronger differentiation from one castle to the other in terms of feelings and moods, despite Harmony actually having more stuff done to its backgrounds between castles, but I like the progression considerably more in Harmony.