Topic: Save your criticism

[Flame]

A lot of what I'm hearing here is "Well, this is how they did it in the past games so that's how they should do it now."

The whole point of LoS' soundtrack was to give the game more of a cinematic feel. 90% of games now are basically trying to be movies for better or worse, and as such, they emulate the vibe of how a movie would tell the story they're trying to tell. I think a lot of you guys are really missing the point. I actually found LoS' soundtrack to be very beautiful and melodic.

If I'm being honest, the Sorrow games had pretty forgettable soundtracks, as did OoE. None of those games really felt terribly Castlevania in terms of soundtrack where I'm concerned.

Aria's Soundtrack I thought was alright. but then again, it's GBA quality. (still better than most of HoD) but what truly makes Aria shine isn't really the music, but the plot, the novelty of the tweest, the setting, (again plot) and the gameplay, all of which wrapped together more or less gave us a SoTN 2. Now, DoS on the other hand... Is forgettable in every respect. Even the music. I really didn't like DoS soundtrack. Mainly, i disliked the way it sounded. i SHOULD like Vampire killer and all those other tunes. But i don't like how they sound on the DS.

[DoctaMario]

Aria's Soundtrack I thought was alright. but then again, it's GBA quality. (still better than most of HoD) but what truly makes Aria shine isn't really the music, but the plot, the novelty of the tweest, the setting, (again plot) and the gameplay, all of which wrapped together more or less gave us a SoTN 2. Now, DoS on the other hand... Is forgettable in every respect. Even the music. I really didn't like DoS soundtrack. Mainly, i disliked the way it sounded. i SHOULD like Vampire killer and all those other tunes. But i don't like how they sound on the DS.

I think part of what we're talking about has to do with hardware limitations. If they could have done full orchestra tracks in the NES days, I'll bet dollars to donuts that they would have. This is the first generation (okay MAYBE second) generation that they've been able to do full-on orchestral soundtracks and they're finally taking advantage of that. I almost wonder if they composed a lot of the songs for the earlier games the way they did because that's all they could do with what they had to work with.

I'm listening to the soundtrack right now and it's like some of the classical music I listen to. I think the choirs are a bit over the top, but it's melodic as any other Castlevania soundtrack is. I think people are just missing the melody (sometimes on purpose) but I can't deny that it's meant to be an accompaniment. And it's definitely supposed to be "fantastic."

NOT-SO-NINJA-EDIT: I feel like the soundtrack really picks up around 'Waterfalls Of Agharta.' I always kind of thought that the first 3 chapters of the game were made with a different game in mind, but once chapter IV rolled around, they straightened up and flew right and I feel the same about the OST even though it picks up earlier imo. 

[Pfil]

With all respect, every Castlevania soundtrack until Lords of Shadow was, in its own terms, from brilliant to very good. Even the Pachislot had good soundtracks.
Order of Ecclesia is one of the best soundtracks of the franchise, in terms of chord progressions, arrangements and melodies. Also in feeling.
And that are especifically the things missing from LoS.
First of all, Castlevania needs to sound like Castlevania, not like a movie. Let God of War, Soul Calibur, Gears of War, Call of Duty, and everything sound like a movie because that's how they always have been. It just doesn't fit in CV, as well as a fantasy setting doesn't fit.
And second, and even more important, and I've said this in more than one occasion, the biggest problem is that it isn't even good as a movie soundtrack.
Believe me, I don't want to sound big headed, but I've studied music for a lot of years, and LoS is nothing like classical music, and with classical I mean classical, romantic, baroque and every iteration that is commonly referred to as classical music. Chord progressions, arrangements, melodies and overall structure is very different.
And it isn't even good as a movie soundtrack. It lacks in melody and in every aspect that, not only excelled in Castlevania so far, but in every good soundtrack in general. Take for example something very different as Gladiator, OldBoy, Star Wars, Atonement, Once Upon a Time in America... everything has some things in common.
With LoS all I hear is what Araujo always does, whether it's another game or a movie. It is predictable, it lacks emotional impact and it never closes its ideas; it's always messing around with the same chord progressions and arrangements and it resets in the middle or near the end to start again with the same we've been hearing.
Mirror of Fate tried for a while to correct some of these issues, but in the end it ended up falling in the same traps and repeating the same mistakes.
I could explain it in more technical terms but there's no point on that. I'm sure there's a lot of people that agrees with this point of view.
You can sound like a movie and still be a hell of a soundtrack. Just listen to what Hans Zimmer did for the Metal Gear franchise, or some of Steve Jablonsky's works in the VG industry.
It could sound like the cutscenes from Lament of Innocence when it tries to be emotional for a critical moment of the plot, it could sound like CV64 when it's trying to set a mood, and it could be like many Soul Calibur themes if it wants to sound like a battle theme and still be excellent music.
But it's none of that.
It's just... Araujo.

[Dark Nemesis]

Aria's Soundtrack I thought was alright. but then again, it's GBA quality.

While i agree with that, having listening to the 4 arrangements from LoI OST bonus, i wish that they would release the rest arranged tracks from AoS, if they exist.

[Pfil]

Aria of Sorrow features some of the best tracks in the history of Castlevania.

[Super Waffle]

Why didn't SotN Maria ever find her calling and take over as the main character of the entire Castlevania franchise?

That always bugged me.

[Inccubus]

A lot of what I'm hearing here is "Well, this is how they did it in the past games so that's how they should do it now."

The whole point of LoS' soundtrack was to give the game more of a cinematic feel. 90% of games now are basically trying to be movies for better or worse, and as such, they emulate the vibe of how a movie would tell the story they're trying to tell. I think a lot of you guys are really missing the point. I actually found LoS' soundtrack to be very beautiful and melodic.

If I'm being honest, the Sorrow games had pretty forgettable soundtracks, as did OoE. None of those games really felt terribly Castlevania in terms of soundtrack where I'm concerned.

Respectfully, no. You're the one missing the point. We understand perfectly well the reasoning behind the music. We just don't agree with it and for me personally that has nothing to do with my opinion that emulating Hollywood is bad.
This push for cinematic music does nothing to improve my enjoyment of the game or it's story. I can understand and sympathize with the narrative and the characters there in just fine without an aural queue.

And more so, just because other games are doing it doesn't justify changing the fundamental character of a series. I'm playing a game, not watching a movie. And for me at least the old catchy tunes from the old canon is far more enjoyable.

And to be honest I mostly agree that the latter metroidvanias had largely forgettable tunes, but they did each have a handful of really good tracks AND good remixes of earlier tracks. But more importantly they all maintained the style that has defined the series for decades. And no matter how anyone wants to spin it LoS does not preserve that style at all because a movie score is not and can never be a video game soundtrack because they are fundamentally different.

I think part of what we're talking about has to do with hardware limitations. If they could have done full orchestra tracks in the NES days, I'll bet dollars to donuts that they would have. This is the first generation (okay MAYBE second) generation that they've been able to do full-on orchestral soundtracks and they're finally taking advantage of that. I almost wonder if they composed a lot of the songs for the earlier games the way they did because that's all they could do with what they had to work with.

Of course they would have, but that doesn't mean they would have made them sound like a movie from the get go.

They've been able to do fully orchestrated soundtracks since the first CD based games.

The entire soundtrack for the first Xenosaga was done by the London Philharmonic Orchestra, and that is a damn fine soundtrack that doesn't sound anything at all like Hollywood tripe.
Orchestration != Cinematic/Hollywood.

In the beginning vg music was simpler because they were restricted in how much they could do, yes. But that grew into it's own style of sorts. The amount of space a song took up on a cart was a very big deal back in the day. But even after that stopped being an issue vg music was still vg music.

Interestingly enough, an issue has popped up with the retranslation of CV2 that is relevant here. The new intro that was added in that tells the story from the original Japanese manual needs a tune to go with it. Someone volunteered and there have been some problems with it's execution. Pretty much the issue is that they're trying to make the song too complex and have it match each scene in a Hollywood-esque manner. This is the mentality that bastardizing game soundtracks has brought about.
So I stepped in an offered the opinion that things would go a lot more smoothly if the composition were made simpler. Less is often more. That is the essence of vg composition, I think. Hollywood doesn't get this, and a movie composer wouldn't get it either. And I don't really blame Arujuo for it either. After all Los has been from day 1 a dudebro-forget-everything-you-know-oh-and-btw-castlevania production.

[Flame]

I almost wonder if they composed a lot of the songs for the earlier games the way they did because that's all they could do with what they had to work with.

Well, yes.

with the limitations of chiptune music, it meant that what they made HAD to stand out. It's actually the problem with lots of modern games today. Chiptune composers had to make every note count, so that the end result could be melodious and catchy. As the audio in games evolved, the soundtracks got more complex until they could just have CD quality audio, with actual music. As a result though, lots of newer composers didn't have the same mindframe of making every note count. they can fill the soundtrack with a movie like score, and it will sound fine, but won't be catchy or melodic.

it's probably why chipune music has become an artform itself. What started out as just a hardware limitation, has become it's own form of music, and for good reason.

I recall hearing someone say once: All VG music composers should learn to compose chiptunes before working on real music for games. that way they learn to make melodic music under limitations.

I feel like the soundtrack really picks up around 'Waterfalls Of Agharta.'

well that's not too surprising, given Waterfalls of Agharta is an orchestral remix of The Waterfall from SCIV
The Waterfall: Super Castlevania 4 Music

Ironically, the best parts of the soundtrack, Belmont's theme aside, ARE the orchestral remixes of classic tunes.

[DoctaMario]

Believe me, I don't want to sound big headed, but I've studied music for a lot of years, and LoS is nothing like classical music, and with classical I mean classical, romantic, baroque and every iteration that is commonly referred to as classical music. Chord progressions, arrangements, melodies and overall structure is very different.

It's just... Araujo.

It sounds more like the early 20th century classical music that a lot of soundtrack composers try to emulate like Morton Gould or Gustav Holst. Listen to Holst's incredible suite "The Planets" and you'll hear a bit of the inspiration for some modern movie scores.

If Araujo was commissioned to compose the score, why would he compose it in anything other than his own style? You may not like his style, but why would he try to emulate someone else if he was hired based on what he's done before?

Respectfully, no. You're the one missing the point. We understand perfectly well the reasoning behind the music. We just don't agree with it and for me personally that has nothing to do with my opinion that emulating Hollywood is bad.
This push for cinematic music does nothing to improve my enjoyment of the game or it's story. I can understand and sympathize with the narrative and the characters there in just fine without an aural queue.

I don't think you do get the reasoning behind it. Is it the best soundtrack in any game ever? No. But it accomplishes what it set out to do and that is, accentuate the different moods and scenes of the game. It's not meant to be a centerpiece in and of itself. The sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves. This is what I think people fail to understand. You say you get it, but I really don't think you do. You're too busy going, "ITZ NOT CASSLEVANYUUUHHHHH!" that you're missing the fact that this game was supposed to be a departure, and as such, it was going to give the team the freedom to reinterpret the vibe of it without being constrained by past games.

Orchestration != Cinematic/Hollywood.

In the beginning vg music was simpler because they were restricted in how much they could do, yes. But that grew into it's own style of sorts. The amount of space a song took up on a cart was a very big deal back in the day. But even after that stopped being an issue vg music was still vg music.

Your statement about orchestration=! Hollywood goes without saying, but in this case, that's what they were going for. That's why they got well known actors to read the parts, that's why they added a bit of the fantasy vibe to the game. They had to come out swinging and going for Hollywood style production values, for better or worse, gave them something to shoot for.

Sometimes limitations define genres. That's how a lot of major innovations start, people trying to do as much as they can with the little they have to work with. VG music was still VG music because the games weren't created with the pretense of immersing you in their environment and providing you with a big sweeping cinema-quality story like they are now.

After all Los has been from day 1 a dudebro-forget-everything-you-know-oh-and-btw-castlevania production.

I don't know if you mean it that way, but you make it sound like anyone who enjoys the game is a dudebro. Just sayin', it's kind of insulting. 

[Inccubus]

I don't think you do get the reasoning behind it. Is it the best soundtrack in any game ever? No. But it accomplishes what it set out to do and that is, accentuate the different moods and scenes of the game. It's not meant to be a centerpiece in and of itself. The sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves. This is what I think people fail to understand. You say you get it, but I really don't think you do. You're too busy going, "ITZ NOT CASSLEVANYUUUHHHHH!" that you're missing the fact that this game was supposed to be a departure, and as such, it was going to give the team the freedom to reinterpret the vibe of it without being constrained by past games.

I understand all of that just fine, I just don't agree with nor like the degree to which they took it. It is possible to depart so far from the things that characterize a series of works to the point that it might as well have not been included in that series at all. The score of LoS is far away from even being similar to any soundtrack that came before it in the CV franchise.
As far as my point of view it doesn't matter that it's "CASSLEVANYUUUHHHHH". If they had done this sort of score for a reboot of Megaman, Super Mario, Sonic, or Contra I wouldn't like it either because it wouldn't fit the character of those series any more than it did here.
What you seem to be missing is that, reboot or not, they presented LoS as a part of the Castlevania series which inextricably connects it to the character of that series and all those things that it has been known for since 1986. Just because they were intentionally departing from the old canon doesn't make the score fit the game as part of the Castlevania series any better. If they had dropped the Castlevania connection completely I'd have nothing to say about it at all.
 

I don't know if you mean it that way, but you make it sound like anyone who enjoys the game is a dudebro. Just sayin', it's kind of insulting. 

I was referring to the demographic that Konami was most concerned with. I never said anything about who actually likes it.

[chainsawmidget]

90% of games now are basically trying to be movies for better or worse,

This is not something that should be encouraged.

... Unless you're one of those types that likes their 30 minute cutscenes occasionally interrupted so you can play for 10 minutes. 

[Pfil]

Games can be cinematic and perfect. Look at Bioshock Infinite.
But that's not for every franchise.

I understand that when they hire a composer they most likely would do it in their style. The problem here is the composer, or the people who thought his works are fine for a game.

And if LoS wouldn't have had the Castlevania name on it, I would have liked it more, and I wouldn't be complaining about what it doesn't have. But the music would still be largely forgettable and uninspired.

[Flame]

I was referring to the demographic that Konami was most concerned with. I never said anything about who actually likes it.

Eeeeh it kind of came off that way a bit.

I dont see Konami as trying top appeal specifically to "dudebros"... Just generally trying to expand the audience by making the game a Cinematic "AAA blockbuster" type, which is the current trend for "big budget" games. Being a reboot was more in line with the expanding of the audience than the cinematicness

[crisis]

When I think of the term "dudebro," I think of Gears of War fans, games like that. I don't consider God of War fans dudebros.. but perhaps others do. I guess Contra fans can be considered dudebros, especially if the rumors of MercurySteam developing the next Contra game is true, then fuggettaboutit 

[Pfil]

Sadly, whether we like it or not, most of the audience in any area are people like that, and that translates in the bad quality of so many things coming out, trying to appeal to those audiences. If not because of that, how is it possible that 6 movies of Fast & Furious exist?
They make certain things because the people who buy them exist (in millions).
And I'm not saying that anyone that enjoys F&F would fit that category, but you can make sure that most fans would (I know a few).
I guess the same applies to what Inccubus was trying to say.