Topic: Save your criticism

[beingthehero]

I wouldn't call Bloodlines 'raw' by any measure. The gore was intentionally comical and comic-book-like. It was the CV version of of the Doom comic.

[crisis]

Symphony had it's fair share of gore & 'raw' as well; the entire Beezlebub battle, the way Alucard disintegrates into a pile of blood after being killed, various enemies' deaths are VERY graphic.

[Belmontoya]

Yes. It makes you use your brain in a different way. I know that's setting me up for people to make comments saying that I'm stupid because I don't like to use my brain. But I am saying that I liked the simplicity of the goal, there are few moments in real life when you get to feel that way. That's what I loved about it. It's also why I love playing paintball. And also like I said, I already had many games that filled the RPG void. I didn't want another one.

And I wasn't saying that SOTN didn't have gore. That was kind of a side note, not having anything to do with what I was talking about in the rest of the comment, my bad.

Bloodlines was gory and raw for the times. When I was a kid many parents would object just to the title screen dripping in blood. I had a friend who had his parents take away his copy of the game.

Of course it looks comical now, and in a way all of the games from that era looked comical because that's all that the graphics could pull off. Mortal Kombat was the first game to make it look a little more real, and that's why it was one of the most conversational games of it's time.

When Bloodlines came out, it was the goriest Castlevania of all time.

[Pfil]

Pfil it sounds to me like you just typed that unless a piece of music has a certain chord progression, then you don't like it and it's not "appropriate." I just want to clarify this.

I like certain chord progressions, but that's not what I said.
I said that the chord progressions LoS uses are not what CV always used.
Appropriate for Castlevania just happens to be the same I like, but one thing has nothing to do with the other.
Chord progressions are the base for everything, and that's why I remarked them so much, but everything in LoS is distant from everything CV has always been. Melodies, arrangements, instrumentation, cadenzas... everything.

I have a music degree, have studied many kinds of music (including classical extensively) and I can tell you that it's about how the melodies are harmonized and arranged. You're not wrong when you talk about chord progressions, but the progressions are dictated by the melodies above them. I could write a piece with that chord progression you mentioned (which, as far as I can tell has only been used, or something close to it, in a couple CV pieces that I can think of) and it could be completely out of character.

I too have a music degree and have studied many kinds of music including classical (in fact, the whole career was based mainly on classical), and I also understand about harmony and arranging, and the melodies, the harmonies and the arrangements in LoS are also miles away from every melody, harmony and arrangement I've heard in Castlevania.

If you dislike the LoS OST as much as you say, I'd doubt you've gone through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure there aren't any "major tonics in a minor key theme followed by a 4th grade" (a major tonic in a minor key is just a III chord.) If anything, a lot of it is hard to hear in-game, and it was only when I listened to the OST by itself that I really discovered how beautiful it was. Some of Araujo's pieces DO follow classical form and progressions, but they owe more to modern classical music. If you don't like Araujo's style that's one thing, but to use theory to prove that the music is "factually wrong" is BS. Stop.

No, major tonic in a minor key is not a 3rd grade, though I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing because in spanish names could be different for the same thing.
In C minor, the chord I'm talking about is C major, followed by F minor, which in a Castlevania context should be followed by a dominant's dominant (D major) and a major dominant.

It sounds to me like you want everything in a minor key (boring and loses effectiveness if EVERY piece is minor) and centered around a i-V-i type of vibe. But what about a piece like the Library theme in Castlevania 4 that doesn't use those progressions, is in major key? It's the character of the piece that makes it work. It's a great piece, but it's nothing like what you're talking about. Or how about 'Rainbow Cave' from SoTN that uses more of a club music feel that really wasn't a part of Castlevania until then. One could say that was out of character, but now it's the norm. And I don't think you could argue that there's anything "classical" or "baroque" about any of the soundtracks in the first several CV games, at least not until CV4. I think your definitions of what's "appropriate" or not are pretty narrow.

Yeah, those are "the other" tracks from CV, also very different from LoS. If with I-V-I you are referring to the grades, then yes, CV needs to have that Beethoven and Bach vibe, and yes, it needs to be mostly in minor key, but that doesn't mean every chord should be minor, something Araujo fails to understand because he is always using the minor dominant instead of the major dominant, never giving full closure to the ideas previously displayed. While in other occasions he directly "resets" the progression and starts over. And no melody can resist that. Not to mention that the "subtle" melodies from LoS are so subtle that they are almost non existant.
I'm very aware of the jazz influences about many Michiru Yamane compositions for the CV franchise, but that never prevented her from following certain lines, especially chord progressions.
And while some tracks could have been defined as a little different, there was always some variety amongst the lines, as well as very baroque and neoclassical tracks for every new game. Something that Araujo also failed to understand, because every ambience track sounds similar to the other ones, and every battle music is just little more than symphonic noise.
He just did exactly what he has made for another games and movies, without caring what CV was about.
There were even some stages with gothic and baroque designs, like the castle front, the library or the clock tower. He could just have composed something based on Wood Carving Partita with a more symphonic sound, but no, we hear exactly the same thing we hear in the rest of the game.
I've also listened the complete version of the album, and my opinion is the same, though of course it would have served wel the game the fact that letting the tracks finish instead of roughly cutting them every time an enemy appeared.
Also, classical music from the early 20th century is not what CV sound has always been about.
With that criteria, some day a new composer will arrive that uses Eberhard Schoener as an inspiration, as any defender of the soundtrack could claim that he is considered classical, no matter how different it is to Castlevania.
I can do with a few different tracks, as long as the essence is there. But in LoS there was nothing remotely Castlevania about the sound (or in the game, to be honest, though the game had some redeeming facts, though not enough to prevent me from enjoying it).
If someone wants to compose on a major key he could very likely use Chopin as an inspiration if he tries to fot the atmosphere. Alone in the Dark worked perfectly with Chopin themes, as well as Bioshock Infinite, which also freatured compositions from Chopin, not to mention Eternal Sonata, when apart from Chopin tracks, the rest of the soundtrack used him as an inspiration for the JRPG kind of soundtrack for the rest of the game. That was a brilliant work.
And I've mentioned some tracks with classical and baroque foundations from early CV games on one of my previous posts.

I'm going to guess that you haven't been a fan of the series for terribly long. I have, since Simon's Quest actually. And I'm thankful that they didn't decide to make every game the same thing. Because as much as I love, especially the classic games, I don't want every game to be the exact same thing. That's how MegaMan ended up where it is today. You can play the Castleroid games as much as you want to. They'll exist forever if you want to play them. The new things, the different things, are what make the series interesting. If you don't like them, you can always play the games you DO like.

No, you guess wrong. I couldn't have been a fan since Simon's Quest because I wasn't even born when that game came out, but I wasn't even a teenager when SotN caught me, and since that moment, CV has been the most important thing amongst all my hobbies, and one of the most important things in my life. It defined my tastes in pretty much everything. Now, 16 years have passed, and I have played several times every Castlevania game available, listened hundreds (if not thousands) of times to every soundtrack, and it's not to presume myself of being the big thing, but I doubt there are a lot of CV fans which breathe and live CV every day like I do.
After having new games almost every year for all my life, now I have to be happy just replaying the old games?
Yes, I will always love them, but these years since 2008 have been the longest years in my life as a fan, and it seems to never end, so no, with all respect, I'm not happy about that, I just want this to be over and finally have a new game to enjoy, to play dozens of times, a new soundtrack to listen to, new artworks and wallpapers to use, new posters for my bedroom, everything. All those things I miss since 2008 (or 2009, if you count Rebirth).
Some people is happy when games change, it's OK, I won't argue with that. Order of Eclessia was a step in the right direction for change, and with games like that everyone would have been happy, but no, Konami had to change everything and erase a quarter century legacy.
I just want the new game to be announced in 2014, 2015, whenever it is, so I will finally know if my hopes were in vain or not, and decide what will it be from that day onwards.
If the new game (and especially soundtrack) follow the line of MercurySteam, I might as well just stop caring, and quit, for my beloved franchise would have suffered the same sad fate as Final Fantasy.

[Belmontoya]

No, you guess wrong. I couldn't have been a fan since Simon's Quest because I wasn't even born when that game came out, but I wasn't even a teenager when SotN caught me, and since that moment, CV has been the most important thing amongst all my hobbies, and one of the most important things in my life.

I know exactly how you feel. I feel the same way about Castlevania 1 on the NES.

[Pfil]

To me, the implementation of RPG elements and the emphasis on exploration were just adding more great stuff to something which was already great.
The only thing "missing" from the ClassicVania (for my taste) is exactly that, because I don't like to never be able to return to a stage or not having different paths, secrets and hidden areas.
And it's not about the difficulty, it's about the complete feeling of having a huge map and progressing by percentage. Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia are proofs that MetroidVania and difficulty can co-exist.
Even Rondo of Blood is proof that there's some middle ground between both CV sub-genres.
But, anyway, all of that is secondary. I love both MetroidVanias and ClassicVanias, and that's what I want to have back. They can make a Castlevania FPS, third person shooter, full-RPG, button mashing, another fighter or multiplayer if they want to, whatever they want to make, what I need is just the look and, above all, the music.

And about what if LoS had been conceived as a 2.5D game?
I guess that's what Mirror of Fate is, so the result isn't very satisfying either.

[Belmontoya]

And it's not about the difficulty, it's about the complete feeling of having a huge map and progressing by percentage. Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia are proofs that MetroidVania and difficulty can co-exist.
Even Rondo of Blood is proof that there's some middle ground between both CV sub-genres.

I wasn't talking about the difficulty, I was talking about the state of mind of the player. SOTN requires you to manage many items even down to what hand is holding what. There are 100's of things to think about that the player never had to up until that point. It changed the entire genre of the series. Rondo of Blood is merely a Classicvania with a stage select option. Alternate routes and multiple characters debuted in 3. And the map stage select system debuted in Belmont's Revenge. In fact you almost had less to worry about in Rondo of Blood because there was no whip upgrading. In that way it was even further in the action genre. I consider it to be nothing close to what SOTN is as far as what type of game it is. The only thing it really has in common is some of the artwork.

To me, the implementation of RPG elements and the emphasis on exploration were just adding more great stuff to something which was already great.

If SOTN was your first CV experience, how could it have felt that way to you? You would of had to play the other games first in order to feel something was being added.

To me, and some other people who loved the original formula, these implementations took the focus away from what we loved about the game.

[Pfil]

I wasn't talking about the difficulty, I was talking about the state of mind of the player. SOTN requires you to manage many items even down to what hand is holding what. There are 100's of things to think about that the player never had to up until that point. It changed the entire genre of the series. Rondo of Blood is merely a Classicvania with a stage select option. Alternate routes and multiple characters debuted in 3. And the map stage select system debuted in Belmont's Revenge. In fact you almost had less to worry about in Rondo of Blood because there was no whip upgrading. In that way it was even further in the action genre. I consider it to be nothing close to what SOTN is as far as what type of game it is. The only thing it really has in common is some of the artwork.

If SOTN was your first CV experience, how could it have felt that way to you? You would of had to play the other games first in order to feel something was being added.

To me, and some other people who loved the original formula, these implementations took the focus away from what we loved about the game.

Indeed, it was my first experience, but it catched me completely because it contained everything I loved: vampires, anime look, gothic and ancient environments, aristocratic old costumes, music based on classicism and baroque periods with a touch of modern music.
It was from that very day that Castlevania got me forever, and not many years passed since I had already played all the games in the franchise.
Now that so many years have passed since those days, and that I have replayed over and over every game in the franchise, including SotN, allowing me to appreciate everything all over as an adult person, I can have a general overview of the entire catalogue, and my perception is that those implementations present in SotN were for the better.
The funniest and most addictive part of a MetroidVania is completing everything and becoming ever powerful. When a games doesn't have those elements I feel something's missing.
Not to mention you do that while listening to the best soundtracks in the world and looking at the best stages ever, dressed with the best costumes conceived by an artist (and this notion applies equally to every CV game for me, no matter how distant in time).
I wouldn't object, however, a game like Order of Eclessia including death pits, where you can select each stage and have a percentage completion but at the same time high difficulty. OoE was close to regaining the famous death pits for Castlevania, and that's why I said it was a step in the right direction of making every kind of fan happy, and that's also why I believe it is sad that, be it Iga or anyone else, the canon timeline and its games weren't given another chance, because the path that had been chosen in 2008 was right.
But, if it is so difficult nevertheless, why can't they just alternate ClassicVania, MetroidVania and 3D games?
I lived that, with the GBA and DS trilogies, DXC and Rebirth, LoI and CoD, and it was perfect.
I want THAT back. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Ahasverus]

Montoya felt with SOTN the same you feel with LoS, it happens all the time. He wants classicvania back too. That's just the way it is, things go, things come, and the same way there was an Adventure Rebirth, who says there won't be a metroidvania in the future? We just have to wait 

[Flame]

My first Castlevania was Aria. Obviously the story and art design drew me in, as well as the thick baroque gothic atmosphere. That said, there is a certain nostalgia and fondness for Classicvanias. I love em to death. particularly Bloodlines. It's so damn vibrant and colorful. (and some of the effects are real damn good, like the reflection on the water)

[Pfil]

Montoya felt with SOTN the same you feel with LoS, it happens all the time. He wants classicvania back too. That's just the way it is, things go, things come, and the same way there was an Adventure Rebirth, who says there won't be a metroidvania in the future? We just have to wait 

I also want ClassicVanias back. But back for good. As well as MetroidVanias. I want Konami to alternate CV, MV and 3DV. It is very sad to think that maybe we will see 1 or 2 games in the distant future like MegaMan 9 and 10, and nothing more, an apart from that, just emptiness and despair.
I don't want my Castlevania as an oasis in the desert, I want it to be the norm, be it ClassicVania or MetroidVania, but I want every year or year and a half a new game, with new characters, new stages and new soundtrack. The way it used to be.
I am, indeed, waiting. But it's been hard to endure.
There's already so many things in life I miss, I don't want to lose CV too.

My first Castlevania was Aria. Obviously the story and art design drew me in, as well as the thick baroque gothic atmosphere. That said, there is a certain nostalgia and fondness for Classicvanias. I love em to death. particularly Bloodlines. It's so damn vibrant and colorful. (and some of the effects are real damn good, like the reflection on the water)

Yes, I don't care if the Genesis is the least technically powerful home console a Castlevania was made for. Bloodlines is one all-time favourite for me. The atmosphere, the general look of ancient european landscapes, the soundtrack... I love Bloodlines as a ClassicVania the same way I love Portrait of Ruin as a MetroidVania, and that shouldn't be surprising since PoR is a sequel to Bloodlines.

[Flame]

Ehhh, as far as PoR goes, I think it failed completely as a sequel, and doesn't live up to Bloodlines.

But that's just me.

[Pfil]

The way I see it, it's the MetroidVania counterpart to its ClassicVania prequel.
If you try to see the story, backgrounds and the atmosphere surrounding everything, all of that beyond the anime look, you may see it the way I see it.
One game is comic book style, the other one is anime style, but they both capture the same feeling (at least to me).

[Inccubus]

I've heard this statement from several different fans before over the years, but the difference from what they said & what you've said, is that those people claim Symphony was more of a departure from Castlevania than LoS is. What I don't understand is, how exactly did Symphony feel alien to the series as much if not more than LoS? When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc. Even Trevor's 8-bit sprite makes a cameo. The only thing that was really "foreign" was the map progression & RPG elements, and even that arguably had it's roots from Simon's Quest.

I guess I can kinda understand how one might say only at first SotN seemed foreign to him/her, until playing the game more thoroughly & realizing it's very much in tune with the "spirit" of Castlevania. I suppose that's how some gradually came to accept LoS, since it still retains at least some "Castlevanian" elements (highly debatable on how much, I know), whilst at the same time [admittingly] leaving out a lot of "Castlevanian" elements.

I can also see the SotN music feeling wierd to some people compared to the rest of the series especially if they hadn't ever played RoB. However all the non-classical/baroque music in SotN has basis in similar tracks from RoB. And I never hear anyone saying that RoB "feels more foreign than LoS".

-Emphasis on exploration over action and platforming
-Main character using a sword rather than a whip and being a non-Belmont
-RPG elements

Those were the big ones for me. The last CV game I'd played before SoTN was Bloodlines, and there's a world of difference between those two games. Even with the spirit and such, it's still a very different game from what came before.

Vampire Killer would like a word with you. It did exploration and multiple kinds of weapons from year one of the series. Even before CV2.

I don't entirely agree about emphasizing exploration OVER action and platforming. SotN had plenty of both. The only thing they did to nerf platforming was getting rid of death pits. I would have preferred if they had kept them, but I can also imagine people bitching about having them, too. And if anything, the action is more intense than any of the previous titles up until you level up. And THAT is where they fucked up the Metroid formula and the action.

Simon in 2 versions of CV1 uses main weapons other than the Vampire Killer. The Vampire Killer wasn't even part of the story until CV3. And speaking of CV3, let's not forget that as early as stage 3 you don't even have to play the rest of the game as Trevor. The difference in SotN is that you aren't given the option to switch back after you start playing as Alucard.

I did find the RPG elements a little odd at first, but even that does have roots in CV2 as Crisis mentioned.

I loved how gory and raw Bloodlines was. It almost reminded me of Splatterhouse.

What was really different for me was my state of mind while playing a game like Bloodlines Vs SOTN.

When I play a game like Bloodlines I am playing a game of mostly instinct and memory. This, to me is what Castlevania was about.

When I played SOTN and the Metriodvanias, I had so many more things to think about other than the action. I had to think "do I have the right item equipped"?,  "How do I get past this door?", and thoughts like "I think I need to be a higher level to survive this". And not to be forgotten, the oh so present "Am I going the right direction".

I didn't like having to think about all of that extra stuff. It took the animalistic feeling of playing Castlevania away from me. This was the BIG difference. It made me use my brain in a whole different way. And it took that away from me in the one place I went to escape that kind of thinking, my favorite video game.

There were other games that already filled this void to me, like Zelda and Metriod. This is what bothered me, because Castlevania was the only game that gave me that other sort of experience, and it was no longer doing that. There are plenty of ways to achieve that kind of gameplay, but when too many RPG elements are implemented, the experience 180's into something completely different.

I got used to it and learned to enjoy the game. But from that point on, new Castlevanias were rarely the game that I fell in love with when I was 6 years old.

LOS felt a little more action based to me, but not as much as I would have hoped.

The presence of similar features in earlier games that I had played before SotN made it less of an issue as I got into it more. For me they did preserve the spirit of the presentation and the core action/platforming game play albeit with plenty of flaws.

LoS on the other hand, screwed up the spirit of the music totally, completely fucked up the platforming like LoI/CoD while replacing it with PoP/GoW shimmying crap, and expanded on the LoI/CoD/GoW combat system which is not what I would consider as being in line with the spirit of the series. (fuck QTEs!) The only thing that is even still Castlevania-ish in the combat system is the sub-weapons and they feel horribly diminished. A flaw shared by SCV4 I might add. On the other hand they did bring back the whip swinging and added some cool other actions you could do, but the way it was executed was stiff and less fun.

Also, Bloodline is pretty damn awesome. I would have liked PoR better if they had tried to match the Bloodlines art style instead of SotN's. Not to mention they missed an opportunity to drop some of the problems caused by the whole leveling system.

[The Silverlord]

When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc.

I remember the game experience as one which was jaw-droppingly brilliant, too.  Even if you do take the more 'unfamiliar' CV elements, it's hard not to guage them as anything but positive on the whole; what were some very memorable moments indeed.  Character voiceovers; Alucard's super fluid animation; enriching in-game storyline and character dialogue; CD quality music, guitars kicking in!; levelling-up; item collection; inventory management; castle room interconnectivity and boss rooms (no stages/levels); secret areas; hidden special moves...

Vampire Killer, Simon's Quest and Rondo set some groundwork, no doubt, but they were nothing like the scale and majesty of Symphony.

I think what tended to stick out was the lack of the whip, and what seemed more Victorian/Renaissance themes with sweeping classical motifs and refined sprite animation. Beautiful, but different--not your original CV movie horror-spoof here--this is a piece of art, and it played spectacularly well.