Topic: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?

[X]

Oh, and Medusa was a goddess that was cursed by one of the Olympian gods and subsequently killed.

Really? The story I'm familiar with is that Medusa was one of the many temple servants to Aphrodite; Goddess of love and beauty. Medusa was apparently a very, very beautiful woman; beautiful enough to almost rival the goddess she serves and the God Poseidon was smitten with her. She resisted all his attempts to court her and then finally, getting all fed up he raped her in Aphrodite's temple. This desecration of her temple angered the goddess (or she was extremely jealous which is also a bad thing when it comes to Aphrodite) and she cursed Medusa with a hideous form; part snake, part human. Very much the polar apposite to her former beauty. It's essentially a classic Greek tragedy where the innocent victim is held accountable and where the criminal gets away with rape 

[theplottwist]

Who knows, since they don't really ever tell you anything about what Dracula's soul is up to when he goes (presumably) back to hell after each defeat he may just have run into Medusa and 'recruited' her.

In fact, Dracula's soul goes to the Makai, the demon world, and gets corrupted even more. Here is the source:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=7375.30

[Inccubus]

Really? The story I'm familiar with is that Medusa was one of the many temple servants to Aphrodite; Goddess of love and beauty. Medusa was apparently a very, very beautiful woman; beautiful enough to almost rival the goddess she serves and the God Poseidon was smitten with her. She resisted all his attempts to court her and then finally, getting all fed up he raped her in Aphrodite's temple. This desecration of her temple angered the goddess (or she was extremely jealous which is also a bad thing when it comes to Aphrodite) and she cursed Medusa with a hideous form; part snake, part human. Very much the polar apposite to her former beauty. It's essentially a classic Greek tragedy where the innocent victim is held accountable and where the criminal gets away with rape 

Actually, that is a much later version of the story and some parts of it are only present in one telling but none of the other much older ones.
Medusa is the daughter of the gods Phorkys and Keto. (That makes her a goddess.) And apparently, in most tellings of the tale she is a priestess of Athena, not Aphrodite. The reason Athena got pissed at her is that, depending on the telling, she either breaks her vow of celibacy and marries Poseidon or she gets raped by him. Either way it happens in Athena's temple.

In fact, Dracula's soul goes to the Makai, the demon world, and gets corrupted even more. Here is the source:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=7375.30

I stand corrected. We don't know much about what he does while he's dead in hell.

[X]

@Inccubus

I see. Depending on the era of said story, content will change over time. I'll have to check out the other versions sometime.

[zangetsu468]

There's the thing; you said it yourself the creatures in the castle are MOSTLY of darkness.
Being "of darkness" doesn't equate to being  demonic any more than being of light.

Funnily enough in AOS when Soma talks about his 'dark powers' he states that dark doesn't necessarily mean 'evil'.

So they aren't even fallen angels in the original.
Dracula gained dominion of an angelic creature.
So there you go even if only one creature in the place is specifically not a demon, then the idea that all the creatures are demonic has to get thrown out.

Point taken about the demonic.

This is what I never understood though, Dracula (as Mathias or Vlad) was once a religious man, but he obviously doesn't worship God (his denouncement later being illustrated during the events->ending of LOI) Yet, SOTN has a holy chapel (technically 2) and in the inverted Castle, the Amalaric snipers openly follow the player trying to inflict harm. Is it because Alucard is unholy, because of his cursed blood?
I guess it's harder imo to understand how Dracula can gain dominion over angelic beings, and why they manifest in his Castle, if say for example other creatures have come from the underworld. It's the how I don't really understand.

As for Dracula's tier, he is the Dark Lord which is the top of the evil food chain.
So, no, I'm not saying any of the creatures are of a higher tier.
The games say that many of the creatures are summoned to the castle.

^this more relates to my point above.^

AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.

I know vaguely of Shinto
I understand the concept of an essence or energy, rather than the stereotypical western definition of a 'soul'.

Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.

All matter has an essence/energy, 'soul' sounds better though.

So to answer your question, no, I wouldn't consider a Zombie Soldier a demon in any sense.

Cool, me neither. I actually think these were thrown in to illustrate that a force of army/military soldiers were involved in 1999, more than anything.

Oh, and Medusa was a goddess that was cursed by one of the Olympian gods and subsequently killed.
(TRIVIA - Medusa was the only one of the three gorgon sisters that wasn't immortal. Also, besides Euryale & Stheno, Echidna, the 3 Graeae and Ladon are all Medusa's siblings.)
So I have to assume that her spirit was summoned to the castle.

Interesting story about Medusa, and yes, one would assume she was summoned. Although some of the time she manifests as a floating head. Also in the context of CV, take LOI, she seems to enjoy inflicting pain upon humans.

Who knows, since they don't really ever tell you anything about what Dracula's soul is up to when he goes (presumably) back to hell after each defeat he may just have run into Medusa and 'recruited' her.

I bet he's off making deals with these monsters and recruiting them in a sense. If he promises that upon his return they will live gain if they give him their soul/ energy/ essence etc, this is a chance they would more than likely take. Can't say for certain though.

[Inccubus]

This is what I never understood though, Dracula (as Mathias or Vlad) was once a religious man, but he obviously doesn't worship God (his denouncement later being illustrated during the events->ending of LOI) Yet, SOTN has a holy chapel (technically 2) and in the inverted Castle, the Amalaric snipers openly follow the player trying to inflict harm. Is it because Alucard is unholy, because of his cursed blood?

That would have been a good point if they hadn't used them in PoR where they openly attack two humans.
I've heard the idea that the presence of the chapel in Castlevania proper is intended as an affront to God.
Then again maybe it's just there because most real castles have them.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I've heard the idea that the presence of the chapel in Castlevania proper is intended as an affront to God.
Then again maybe it's just there because most real castles have them.

Yes and yes. Plus chapels allow pixel artists to create backgrounds with vivid pretty stained glass colors.

[Dracula9]

Actually, that is a much later version of the story and some parts of it are only present in one telling but none of the other much older ones.
Medusa is the daughter of the gods Phorkys and Keto. (That makes her a goddess.) And apparently, in most tellings of the tale she is a priestess of Athena, not Aphrodite. The reason Athena got pissed at her is that, depending on the telling, she either breaks her vow of celibacy and marries Poseidon or she gets raped by him. Either way it happens in Athena's temple.

Ancient mythos are far too variable to really pin down. It's one of the rare instances when I slightly justify incorrect popular usage. For instance, why should we call a certain Allfather Odin when an earlier spelling translates to Oithin? Or whether it's Jormungandr or The Serpent of Midgard? Whether it's Hercules or Herakles, Cerberus or Cerebos or Kerebos, or why the fuck Disney's Hercules made Hera not a total bitch, Zeus not a total horndog, and thought it would be a PHENOMENAL IDEA to hook Herc up with one of the fucking Sisters of Fate...only she's actually human now. Like I said, pretty hard to find a solid consistency. Going by the earliest telling only gets you so far, since they find an older one every few years.

I stand corrected. We don't know much about what he does while he's dead in hell.

That's assuming he's even in Hell. Maybe he just hightails it to Barbados for a mai tai and a tan (God knows he needs one).

All matter has an essence/energy, 'soul' sounds better though.

No, a soul implies a consciousness, emotive state, or sentience of being and/or intellect. It does not and should not equate to physiological essence. I don't have the same essence as a chair because a chair has no intellect, emotion, or sentience (as far as I know, Hector might disagree). Granted, you then delve into a spiritually-involved argument (note that I didn't say 'religiously') which defeats the purpose of it. Don't be getting all philosophical when there's not much need for it.

[theANdROId]

Well, at least Disney could claim the excuse that they have to censor some stuff out to make a "family friendly" movie...though one would then have to wonder how they'd try and excuse other crap they got past the radar. ;-P

As for the mythos/folklore, weren't many of these stories shared or passed down through storytelling?  I'm sure years of essentially playing "telephone" contributed to the many differences these stories usually have.

Hector...chairs...HA!  That's awesome!

[Inccubus]

Yeah, Disney doesn't really do that much any more. They just have one of their various studios handle the grittier content.

[zangetsu468]

No, a soul implies a consciousness, emotive state, or sentience of being and/or intellect. It does not and should not equate to physiological essence. I don't have the same essence as a chair because a chair has no intellect, emotion, or sentience (as far as I know, Hector might disagree). Granted, you then delve into a spiritually-involved argument (note that I didn't say 'religiously') which defeats the purpose of it. Don't be getting all philosophical when there's not much need for it.

Riiiight, I'm guessing you didn't read Inccubus' post then, since mine was so much more philosophical....

AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.
Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.

@ Dracula9 How about not telling people how to post, that'd be just great.

That would have been a good point if they hadn't used them in PoR where they openly attack two humans.

Well if Dracula has dominion over them it shouldn't make any difference I suppose. Although POR like every other 2dvania at the time was ripping sprites from previous games, so it was probably just that.

I've heard the idea that the presence of the chapel in Castlevania proper is intended as an affront to God.
Then again maybe it's just there because most real castles have them.

Well the chapel itself is perverted with enemies, floating swords, and the like. I always just thought it was one of the creepier parts of the Castle and seemed out of place.

[Dracula9]

Riiiiight, demand I stop telling people what to post and then accuse me of not reading the thread. That looks really good on you.

Actually, your post is more philosophical, or rather, it tries to be; your comment that essence and a soul were one and the same was something I like to call Bullshit Philosophy, which in a nutshell is wording something insignificant or outright incorrect to sound deep or symbolic. And if you couldn't tell, the last two sentences of mine, about chairs not having souls and telling you not to bullshit, was sarcasm. Whoops. 

AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.
Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.

@ Dracula9 How about not telling people how to post, that'd be just great.

That would've been all great and dandy, had I been the one to say it. I didn't even say that, Inccubus did. You even responded to the Shinto references, you fuckin' moron.

I know vaguely of Shinto
I understand the concept of an essence or energy, rather than the stereotypical western definition of a 'soul'.

Double whoops. And on that note, Western culture didn't invent the concept of the soul as it's most widely known today. That concept came over with the Puritans and refined itself over the centuries. And Western culture isn't the only one to use the idea. This of course assumes by Western you mean not-Japan, which is alright until the directions tangle each other up after so long. Go West enough and you'll reach Japan, making Japan a Western culture of whatever the fuck's east of it.

And lastly:
Quote from: Inccubus on October 17, 2014, 03:09:54 AM
How about reading who said what before starting shit, that'd be just great.

[Nagumo]

This thread has gotten off-topic, so please take this to the off-topic board if you want to continue to discuss this further. Also, I don't think there's any reason to get worked up about this. Treat each other kindly, or if you can't, don't talk about it.   

[theANdROId]

 

Can We All Just Get Along? For The Kids & Old People? RODNEY KING SPEAKS!

What would I change?  I'd make a world where the fans were all filled with happiness and joy and brotherly love!  I have a dream -- my Castlevania fans around the world, will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the Vania of their preference, but by their love for the game -- I have a dream today! ... When ALL of Castlevania Dungeon's Forum, Classicvani-ists and Metroidvani-ums, Gabul-iniums and Trevor-ians, 2D-ists and 3D-ists, will be able to join hands and sing in the tunes of the old Castlevania chiptunes, Vampire Killer, Wicked Child, and Bloody Tears!

 

[Dracula9]

...Well, how the hell do we come back from that? I can't top that..