Topic: I knew it! Castlevania: Lords of Shadow!(SPOILERS HERE, PLZ USE THE SPOILER TAG)

[Ahasverus]

and MS, despite making a stellar action game featuring a chain flailing Belmont....failed to really capture the essence of this franchise in a way that could have sucked in every hardcore fan and left them begging for more.

I think this is pretty much an issue with the art style, gameplay is pure CV in my book, it just feels diferent because of aesthethics.

[Puwexil]

Limp, weightless, combo-fetishistic action centered around arena encounters, interspersed with an endless array of menial puzzles is probably the furthest thing I can think of when it comes to Castlevania. The only mildly enjoyable parts in Lords are the whip-swinging and rappelling bits, and even then the process is too automated for its own good.

It's hilarious, but the N64 games are actually closest to a workable formula as far as 3D CV goes, though they had their own myriad of problems. Lament is competent in its base combat mechanics (more so than Lords is), but again, Castlevania with platforming excised and battles brought to an unflattering spotlight is not a very good Castlevania. Curse is not worth talking about because all it did was elaborate on Lament's issues via the cancerous adopting of Nano Breaker's example, of all things.

pssstplaydemon'ssoulspssst

[Kingshango]

Call me crazy, insane mentally unstable and senile but I think the epilouge in LOS (before the final 2 minutes) felt more like a Castlevania than anything in the main game did. I dunno, it had that atmosphere that the series is known for and I wish the main game had more of that.

[Sumac]

I think that CV64 is one of the best games in the series, IMHO.
It have awesome atmospehre and music. Controls could be better, but I never had any major problems with them as with the camera.

LOI was boring. Though it had good atmosphere and cool bosses, levels in this game were a chore.

[RichterB]

Yeah, CV64/LoD was where it was at.

Those N64 games had a lot of positive/innovative features that served up CV in 3D:
*Multiple unique characters (up to four in LoD, two in CV64) with alternate levels/bosses
*Full 3D gameplay (ala Mario 64, so it's not "on-rails")
*Multiple endings based on performance
*Level Design features spatial depth (vertical and horizontal--not flat hallways)
*day-and-night cycles with time-sensitive events (like Simon's Quest)
*Weather effects (rain, lightning, moving clouds, and "fog"--the last one likely being a graphical shortcoming that actually helped)
*Dynamic, real-time lighting (next to candles, for instance)
*spot-on atmosphere
*death-defying platforming of all sorts (including ledge grabbing).
*environmental/enemy hazards (medusa heads, spikes, guillotines, buzz-saws, cannons).
*innovative survival-horror/suspense elements
*Vampires that pretend to be human and vampires as regular enemies besides bosses
*status changes, including poison and vampirism
*manageable questing with inventory items (meat, keys, cards, cure ampules, etc)
*interesting, involving plot (characters like Rosa, Vincent, Renon, Malice, Henry, etc)
*3D in-game cinemas
*Some voicing
*Unlockable alternate costumes
*Long and short-ranged attacks (IE: whip + sword)
*upgradable sub-weapons (in LoD)
*There is a useful slide and duck/crawl play mechanic
*Diverse mix of old and new enemies in 3D
(As an aside, it's worth noting that certain Beta video elements didn't get into either game like swinging over gaps with the whip; but it shows that minds were in the right place)

...To be honest, though, the N64 age was one of the most daring in terms of using FULL 3D gameplay in video games, because it was so experimental, and everything wasn't super corporate/cost-expensive yet compared to today.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

^^^
I approve of the above comment.
More of all of this, please, from the new CV teams, whomever they might be.

[Ahasverus]

The 64 games were technical trash, but take out the bad camera and glitchy detection issues and you get GREAT games. It only needs a graphicall overhaul and physics implementation to remake it and it could be the killer game we've waiting for all these years (ironic isn't it?)

[darkwzrd4]

The only thing I didn't like about CV64 and LoD was the combat.  All the attacks, except for Carrie's, were aimed in front of you and was kind of stale.  I liked the combat in LoS because it had an array of skills and you could go as deep into it as wanted.  If you wanted only the basic stuff, fine.  In essence, LoS gives more options in combat whereas with CV64 and LoD combat is pretty limited (just primary weapon, secondary weapon, and current subweapon).  I don't know about you guys, but I like to have the options available.  This way you can better adjust to the battle situation especially against Dracula who usually has more than one form.

[Renonsgoods]

Well I've already touched on the fact that the N64 Vanias were subpar in the technical department (sloggy graphics, sluggish controls, camera issues, etc...), but the whole point is that the template those games used was far superior to those used in subsequent 3D titles.  If one were to follow this template today.....using a modern control scheme, modern graphics and sound, better cinematics and voice acting, and a more robust combat system (something that I feel LoS did do right).......I think it would be, far and away, the best 3D Vania done yet.

[darkwzrd4]

Well I've already touched on the fact that the N64 Vanias were subpar in the technical department (sloggy graphics, sluggish controls, camera issues, etc...), but the whole point is that the template those games used was far superior to those used in subsequent 3D titles.  If one were to follow this template today.....using a modern control scheme, modern graphics and sound, better cinematics and voice acting, and a more robust combat system (something that I feel LoS did do right).......I think it would be, far and away, the best 3D Vania done yet.

Yes, I've been saying this a lot.  And, I think all of us strongly agree with this.

[Munchy]

Well I've already touched on the fact that the N64 Vanias were subpar in the technical department (sloggy graphics, sluggish controls, camera issues, etc...), but the whole point is that the template those games used was far superior to those used in subsequent 3D titles.  If one were to follow this template today.....using a modern control scheme, modern graphics and sound, better cinematics and voice acting, and a more robust combat system (something that I feel LoS did do right).......I think it would be, far and away, the best 3D Vania done yet.

I would tend to agree. There are a few things I'd revamp, like the ledge grabbing of platforms (why doesn't he just climb automatically?), some of the sluggishness of the jumping and moving, and some of the night/day puzzles that felt like an awful, awful chore, but I personally loved the N64 games. Just wish LoD gave Reinhardt and Carrie the original versions of their respective tower levels and Henry a more robust and unique scenario (not to mention some of the first game's lovely touches like the violin on the title screen which was AMAZING), but after playing it I was utterly baffled at the horrendous reviews it got.

[X]

I'd have to agree too. Just as long as the combat isn't needlessly dragged on and on and on with minor enemies like in GoW.

-X

[darkwzrd4]

Yeah, minor enemies shouldn't be so hard to kill.  For example, the skeletons.  In CV, they tend to be among the weakest enemies, yet in LoS, they were among the hardest to kill unless you had a dark crystal and the did a s*&t load of damage.  Killing skeleton enemies should only take a few hits unless it is a skeleton boss.

[RichterB]

I'd have to agree too. Just as long as the combat isn't needlessly dragged on and on and on with minor enemies like in GoW.
-X

^^ Very important!

The danger with having a super-robust combat system is that it often comes at the cost of game rhythm.

I won't deny that LoS' combat system is fairly fun and very cool-looking, but I also found a surprising amount of variety in CV64's simplicity. To illustrate, I'll use two examples. Gabriel vs. Lycans and Reinhardt vs. Skeletons.

*With Gabriel, with the right timing, you can spam a Lycan by knocking it into the air and coming around with a spinning whip slam that eliminates the foe. (Or you can throw a knife and watch it explode). Later on, magic comes into play.
*With Reinhardt, you whip a skeleton, go into a slide tackle, and come up with a short-ranged blade swipe. (Or, jump in, whip, and then hit with the holy water or sub-weapon of choice). In LoD, you can upgrade sub-weapons to do more damage.

Now, it seems to me that the pre-programmed button-press combos of LoS make the game more about calculation, and less about player ingenuity. Also, the amount of combos, and the power within them, lessen (almost negate) the importance of sub-weapons. More importantly, the simple combat of CV64 means most enemies take less hits, which in turn makes for scenarios like Level 2 of CV64 where you have to platform-jump while dealing with medusa heads, bats, bone pillars (and their projectiles), as well as crumbling/flipping platforms and falling guillotines.

Meanwhile, heavy combo-centric combat doesn't naturally engender the gameplay rhythm necessary to dodge structural obstacles AND fight the enemies. In fact, it emphasizes the "fight action," resulting in more arena-type scenarios, and less strategic enemy placement (bone-throwers on broken bridges) and free-form pursuing enemies (like the Forest of Silence's running skeletons). The former scenario is also where sub-weapons come most in handy, yet if the scenario is lacking, the sub-weapons again dip in their importance. As a result, the sections of action and platforming seem to become stratified and separated in LoS, which isn't the Castlevania norm.

I'm not saying you can't have more whip options, but it can't get too over-the-top or it becomes more of a "superman hack-n-slash." It should be more limited and strategic, like a "whip crack" to draw the enemy away, or a Circle of the Moon-like "Spin Attack" for use as a temporary shield. This idea of wailing on the enemy like you have a leather machine gun is just counterproductive--especially to things like "weak spots."

[xscientist5000]

I also feel that CV64 is the best in the series. It's got some major horror/survival elements. The AVGN took shots at it for the camera and the magical nitro/ removing the seal. At least you can control the camera, unlike LOS, which is eye candy at the expense of freedom. The seal in the castle center was a meaningful aspect of the game. It was a puzzle. You had to explore the castle center and talk to the lizard man to figure it out. He tells you exactly what to do. If you can't do that then you're not really trying that hard, or you just need a more straight forward game. And he made it seem that he picked Carrie because it was too hard to play as Reinhardt. Whatever, I'm glad he didn't choose Reinhardt because he would have disgraced the Belmont name.

But I highly enjoyed the platforming in LOS. If they took out most of the enemies and made me platform the whole game I might even like it better.