Topic: I knew it! Castlevania: Lords of Shadow!(SPOILERS HERE, PLZ USE THE SPOILER TAG)

[darkwzrd4]

I hope IGA continues the Lords storyline.

You're joking, right!?  If we want to have a cohesive continuing storyline, than IGA can't do it unless he changes the way he does things.  He even emits that he comes up with the individual games story first and then shoehorns it into the existing cannon.  It's precisely the reason the old cannon has so many plot holes and isn't always clear.  I mean even a retard knows that once you have a concept, you look at the already existing storyline in the series and then develop the vague idea into a detailed game after considering what already exists.  IGA's way is counter-intuitive and is why he needs to change the way he does things or he needs to stand aside and let someone else handle things.

[beingthehero]

cannon

cannon

cannon

Nobody really cares about Castlevania's canon. IGA didn't care about it by 2008. OoE's setting was deliberately left completely vague other than 'sometime in the 19th century' and he flatly stated to "forget about the canon" in an interview around when Judgment was released. It was meant to give some cohesive semblance to the franchise around 2001, since we had games from medieval times, to suddenly the 20th century, before retreating a bit to the 1700s. They long-since ignored CV1's own mythos about Dracula rising every 100 years. At the time it seemed chaotic, but now, who cares? IGA doesn't.

Also, man, using 'retard' as a pejorative is like saying 'that game is gay, this is better.' 

[Alutwon]

Keep the conversation going! This is why I come here. Judging by what I hear Gabe may be the only Belmont  

[Ahasverus]

You're joking, right!? 

Of course he is, no one in with a trace of their mental capabilities would think such nonsense

[Gecko]

(click to show/hide)

Ya know what I really thought was neat about the Forgotten One fight(s)?
It alluded to LoI's Forgotten One in that you had to destroy it from the lower parts to the highest part(his head). Just something I noticed and thought was a neat little reference.

[crisis]

gameplay videos are up on youtube (for real this time hehe)

(click to show/hide)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cjwhko2BLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXZltsxtc2E

[uzo]

OK so I finished the DLC.

(click to show/hide)

Pretty aweosme boss battle. Thank god no titan bullshit. The way he killed him at the end, almost seemed a little obvious, but it was still cool. He owned him hard, and it explains the super power that Dracula would have.

Regarding the whole Dracula thing and the normal game ending;

(click to show/hide)

Is it just me, or was the Dracula reveal just a complete bullshit tacked on twist for the sake of a twist? They spent all that time building up the good guy gone wrong, only to have him completely repent, come back to God, and be cleansed. Then they went "lol no, you gotta go bad again cause you're gonna be dracula" and just kinda of forgot that all happened and super charged him with some powers and off we go. I really wish it were a matter of Gabriel having ascended, and then his evil manifestation becomes Dracula, as originally speculated. If his evil left behind did all this vampire transform and The Forgotten One's power steal, then that would have been pretty cool.

[Munchy]

OK so I finished the DLC.

(click to show/hide)

Pretty aweosme boss battle. Thank god no titan bullshit. The way he killed him at the end, almost seemed a little obvious, but it was still cool. He owned him hard, and it explains the super power that Dracula would have.

Regarding the whole Dracula thing and the normal game ending;

(click to show/hide)

Is it just me, or was the Dracula reveal just a complete bullshit tacked on twist for the sake of a twist? They spent all that time building up the good guy gone wrong, only to have him completely repent, come back to God, and be cleansed. Then they went "lol no, you gotta go bad again cause you're gonna be dracula" and just kinda of forgot that all happened and super charged him with some powers and off we go. I really wish it were a matter of Gabriel having ascended, and then his evil manifestation becomes Dracula, as originally speculated. If his evil left behind did all this vampire transform and The Forgotten One's power steal, then that would have been pretty cool.

Totally agree on the second point. I just can't reconcile

(click to show/hide)

Gabriel, who is a pretty capital guy by most standards, with Dracula, a lean, mean, innocent-impaling machine. The transformation makes zero sense.

With regards to sequel and the Dracula-Belmont feud, I hope they make like Monty Python and the Holy Grail and get on with it.

[Renonsgoods]

Oh jeez, now we're gonna have someone make a "Gabriel vs Mathias whos the beter Dracula???" poll and countless pages of constant debating back n forth.

Ooh ooh...even better: a "Gabriel vs Mathias...who would win in a fight to the death???" poll. 

As far as Resurrection is concerned......SCREW getting the achievement for beating this on Paladin difficulty.   Fuuuu...

[Chernabogue]

I want to see the final battle and end now!!

Plateforming was epic, with the hiding stuff. Battle against TFO was pretty awesome, I'm glad he's not a boring titan.

[Vampire Killer]

Well, i just played it and I have to say it was enjoyable. Only worth it if you're really into LoS though.

I disagree with Uzo.

(click to show/hide)

I feel that Gabriel as Dracul makes perfect sense, in a "christian" sort of way (which is what the background morality of the game is based on). If you pay attention to what many of the characters said to Gabriel during the game, particularly Carmilla and Pan, you can see how all this was alluded to.

With Carmilla, I think it's three things which cause her to say what she does concerning Gabe's fate. First, she knows that Gabriel is being used. Does she know by whom? Maybe, maybe not, but she probably at least suspects Zobek.  Second, she's sees that Gabe actually has the potential to do what he says. That is, destroy them all (even Zobek). Third, she is acutely aware of TFO's existence, and thus knows that if Gabriel does succeed in his quest, the only way for Gabe to keep the world safe is to stop TFO by becoming a vampire himself, thus why she says "you'll be one of us, eventually".  As I see it, Carmilla was acting as a sort of gatekeeper for TFO. Hence why Olrox kept saying "the dark lady watches over you". He was referring to the fact that Carmilla was using he power to keep TFO at bay (so even though she was evil and wanted to subjugate the world, she still uses he powers for good in a way)

From Pan's end, it seems as if he foresaw it in a vision or something, asking Gabriel if he could "accept his fate". Gabriel being "fated" to be Dracul though, means that God lead him down that path, which may seem confusing to some. In a world where freewill reins, both good and evil are equally possible, otherwise it wouldn't be freewill. And though much evil happens through the abuse of our freedom, God seems to somehow hold it in check, even if sometimes only to the point of just barely holding back complete destruction.  For example, the Bernhard family, through an abuse of their freewill, were able to summon a force so destructive it would've lead to the annihilation of everyone on the planet. To counter this, God uses the Brotherhood of Light to seal The Forgotten One away. Unfortunately, the founders, in their ignorant pride (which is what initially lead to the release of TFO by the Bernhard's...ignorant pride that is) became at least in part evil themselves, and thus yet another blight on humanity.

So, when all hope seems lost, in steps Gabriel to save the day. But poor Gabriel doesn't know he's being manipulated at every turn. Zobek thinks he's pulling the strings. Using Gabriel to do what he couldn't, which is to kill his rival Lords of Shadow leaving Zobek to rule the world w/o rival, while simultaneously acquiring the pieces of the GodMask, something unattainable to any of the LoS. But then we find out that Zobek was just being used by Satan, possibly for the very same purposes. The GodMask may have seemed to be Satans only motive, but if Zobek doesn't want the other LoS around as competition for Grand Evil Head Hancho, I can guarantee you the Devil wants it even less. But Satan isn't the only one with a plan behind the plan.

Just when all seems lost, God brings Gabriel back to life (Gabe did ask after, "Why has my life been given back to me?", which means that he was indeed dead after Zobek zapped him), and uses him to open up a can-o-whoop-ass all over Satan's behind. After finding out that Maria is still going bye-bye (though at least she'll be entering into the Lord's presence, so it's not all that bad), Gabe feels incredible remorse about what he's done, even if unbeknownst to him while doing it. I mean, if you woke up tomorrow to find your wife dead, would it ease your suffering to know that you killed her youself, in an unconscious state, or would that make it worse? I'm guessing worse. So I'm guessing Gabe feels more as empty and confused as any man ever has. He has no idea what to do with himself.

Then Claudia calls to him, and gives him the only reason to continue to fight that could possibly spur him on. The absolute destruction of all of mankind. The Bernhand family brought TFO to earth. God uses the Brotherhood to lock him up. Years later a new threat appears in the Lords of Shadow, and for a time God uses to Brotherhood itself to fight them. But that battle, fought for centuries, eventually goes sour, and has lead to what would be the eventual complete destruction/subjugation of all mankind. So, God uses Gabriel to keep that from happening. Gabe destroys two LoS, Satan destroys the third (or at least certainly kicks him down a notch), then Gabe beat Satan. Then, finally the final threat in TFO himself. Sure, Satan was pulling the strings on Zobek, who in turn was pulling the string of Gabriel (a bit), but ultimately it was God who was pulling the strings of them all. Not with puppet like control mind you, but simply by allowing them all to go the way their freewill was leading them. Even using evil itself to do His will.

I think Tolkien puts it best in the in the Silmarillion when he wrote Illuvatar (God) saying to Melkor (the devil) "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

And yes, even in Gabriel becoming Dracul His will is done (perhaps not His perfect will, but His will in accordance to allowing freewill). As powerful as Dracul is, being now the absolute lord of evil on earth, I suspect he still has a part of his humanity in him, buried deep, which is why God makes Gabriel Dracul in the first place. Whatever Gabriel's origins, God's plan for him all along was this very thing. Just look at Gabriel at the end of the epilogue. He's tired, not just physically, but mentally and spiritually as well. Just like Claudia before him, he feels the goodness of his humanity calling out to him, and wants release from being the wretched thing that he his. I suppose that's what forgiveness and salvation are all about. Coming to the understanding of how truly wretched we are, and desiring to be free from our sinful selves. Gabriel as Dracul may be terrible, but even with all the power of the LoS combined, plus the added power of TFO, he will be a lesser evil compared to what would have been otherwise. He may be a threat to the world, but he's a threat that because of his ingrained personality, will not destroy the world.  He is the reluctant lord of darkness, whom God will use once again to defeat Satan a second time.

And so, Pan see's Gabriel's fate. How much of that fate we don't know, but at the very least he foresaw that Gabriel was to become something terrible, but through that to save humanity from something far worse.

[whitedragon_nall]

I'll have to check the videos out when I get off work, though I'd much rather play it. It's hard resisting looking at these spoilers.

[Tobias]

Right. It's all just so nebulously defined. My main point of contention is that there's never a concrete reason for his supposed fall, it only exists as a plot contrivance to fit the story the developers want to tell, but don't seem able to put together in a natural or believable cause-and-effect way. It just comes off as grasping at straws to make your character fill a role he's not right for to begin with.

Yes, because of all the build up they did with Mathias.  All the screen time he got before the big reveal so he was something other than a throw away name.

Simply put, Mathias could have been awesome.  But he's extremely flat.  Why is he a master tactician?  Because we were told he was.  Except a master tactician would have realized that his best friend would probably not be happy about having been forced to go through hell as part of a master plan, and realize that offering immortality wouldn't have helped things.  A real master tactician would have already planned to have Leon dead/dying before the reveal, or disarmed and away from the Vampire Killer.  It wasn't as if Mathias was very sentimental if he was willing to inflict the same kind of suffering he was going through (you know, the loss that made him despise God) on his best friend by that point after all.  They just needed to contrive some way to excuse why he wouldn't kill Leon ("You know all that stuff about him being a Master Tactician and how he ruthlessly got everything going, including killing his best friend's wife?  Ignore it.")

Gabriel's story builds to it's conclusion, while Mathias is thrown at us and then paused for a few centuries where he apparently does nothing. Gabriel is left with nothing but his losses and suffering, having burned out what was good in him to save the world.  Mathias' decision to become a vampire doesn't make much sense.  In fact, he has to undergo the exact same problem TWICE to go completely evil, whereas Gabriel undergoes a visible transformation over several chapters. Gabriel has progression, Mathias has fits and starts.

So if Gabriel's transformation is contrived, Mathias' is just as bad.  At least there was foreshadowing with Gabriel throughout the entirety of LoS.  Mathias was a "who's that guy again?" revelation

[Puwexil]

I'm pretty sure I prefer Mathias' couple of minutes of proper screentime to Gabriel's long-winded jaunt through Wallachia or whatever. He's always in the spotlight, and with a game that has as bad writing as this one does, there are lots of opportunities for contradictions and questions to arise from the endless dialoguing and monologuing. Mathias pops up in person for just a moment, but I know what he did and why he did it because of the sparing characterization; there's little room for confusion. Gabriel, uh... is broken from being used like a toy by everyone he meets? I still don't know why it's necessary for him to become Dracula, other than to fulfill a writer's fantasy of employing some very subtle dramatic irony. "What if Dracula... was originally a BELMONT?" The road to this transformation is not depicted well, and it's even conceptually pretty wack and a twist on the level of fan fiction.

[Ahasverus]

Mathias reveal was bad, simply bad, it's fun how almost all fans despised him before LoS and then IGA fans were GaGa saying that Mathias is now actually a good character after all the bashing, some people just don't accept change for the sake of it