Topic: I knew it! Castlevania: Lords of Shadow!(SPOILERS HERE, PLZ USE THE SPOILER TAG)

[crisis]

Jason Isaacs: If you think you know Castlevania, think again.

Dave Cox: Haterz will never understand, Castlevania is in the best shape it's ever been.

Konami: What 25th Anniversary?

Kojima: Don't look at me, I'm just doing my thang

[Vampire Killer]

I just want to chime in to say the I loved the music in LoS, and although different in many ways (mainly in that it's much more orchestrated), it still sounds very Cv to me. After DL'ing the extended score, I listen to it quite regularly.

In fact, LoS has, IMHO, the best music since SotN

Feel free to troll away

[crisis]

Well, CV Adventure is just as fun to play as Symphony, and even Aria of Sorrow. Adventure's soundtrack may even be on par with Aria's.





imho of course

[Flame]

In fact, LoS has, IMHO, the best music since SotN

I mean, I think its great too, But sheeit, Best SINCE SoTN? Now that's quite a claim.

So you mean to say, games such as Aria of Sorrow, LoI, and CoD's soundtracks... which are among the best in the post SoTN outings- are all trumped by the score which only includes like 5 or so tracks total, which are mostly atmospheric tracks designed to work like in movies.

Uh-huh, ok.

Im sorry, but Nothing in LoS can top tracks like House of Sacred Remains, Dark Palace of Waterfalls, or Abandoned Castle, or Toccata into Blood Soaked Darkness. The track that plays during the hedge maze comes pretty close, since it has some vocalization that reminds me heavily of Ghostly Theatre, but... No. Not even Waterfalls of Agharta, and I consider that my favorite track in LoS

Plus I mean, they are TOTALLY different beasts.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

I mean, I think its great too, But sheeit, Best SINCE SoTN? Now that's quite a claim.

So you mean to say, games such as Aria of Sorrow, LoI, and CoD's soundtracks... which are among the best in the post SoTN outings- are all trumped by the score which only includes like 5 or so tracks total, which are mostly atmospheric tracks designed to work like in movies.

Uh-huh, ok.

Im sorry, but Nothing in LoS can top tracks like House of Sacred Remains, Dark Palace of Waterfalls, or Abandoned Castle, or Toccata into Blood Soaked Darkness. The track that plays during the hedge maze comes pretty close, since it has some vocalization that reminds me heavily of Ghostly Theatre, but... No. Not even Waterfalls of Agharta, and I consider that my favorite track in LoS

Plus I mean, they are TOTALLY different beasts.

Something I COMPLETLEY agree with.^^^

Say what you want about LOI or COD but those 2 games had a awesome score.

Saying LOS topped those 2 as well as other games like AOS and OOE just seems.... ridiculous to me.

Your entitled to your opinion dude but I just could not disagree more.

[cecil-kain]

OK --so I've been catching up on the last few pages about this music article, and reading more of Cox's Twitter.  I think it's become pretty obvious that Castlevania has a legion of 5-minute, fair-weather, ignorant, LoS fans.  Just look at all of these people that appear to be congratulating Cox on Castlevania's 25th Anniversary!  Not only is he *almost* taking the credit, but he's proudly boasting how the brand has "never been in better shape" --thanks no doubt to him...  Cox's unprofessional arrogance and condescension toward fan critics *almost* has me reconsidering my position toward boycotting LoS2.  Haterz?  Indeed!  Once I'm over this flu bug, I think I'll get cracking on an appropriate Youtube response...

[jestercolony]

What I am simply speaking of when it comes to terms with the game's musical score is a lot of factors.  But to dumb a lot of things down without having to write a huge essay/article -

Interval/Ear training - How many notes can you pick out which then take notice to the following.

1. Tempo/Timbre
2. Harmony
3. Melody
4. Bass
5. There is was no thing as 4/4 time in the entire musical score besides a few set pieces.
5a. 4/4 time is music for retards (95% of today's music; sad, but true.)

Then you need to think in more technical dynamics such as counterpoint and compound melody, dissonance, the use of scale phrasing. Half of the people that I have taught over the years will not even be able to pick up the slightest and tiniest note and how the sounds are used for lower end octaves and higher octave. Not to mention there is a soft/loud aspect when it comes to any instrument. I'm looking at the factor of music not only from a theory aspect, but also an emotional stand point. 

This "new-aged movie musical" score thing is b/s. I suggest you use the term "new-aged classical", with more given respect. But I assume you're one of them kids who sits in front of fruity loops and allows a program to do the work for you instead of picking up a book and an actual instrument and observing what a computer cannot do. Any one can write music, but it takes an actual composer, with emotion to right a piece that will shake the foundation of generations to come.

We all will either enjoy it or hate it. Critics are every where, but majority of critics I have met do not have proper ear training, cannot even pick out the 'missing' notes that will actually make a song stand out and how its unique. I'm a music teacher for a living, 75% of students I have encountered are tone def - and I have had to sit down with them for hours in order to train their ear to pitches, which turn in to notes, then when it comes to degrees (i.e intervals = the step of degrees within an octave.)

There are two types of musician's from my personal experience -

1. Emulators - These musicians try to copy everyone else, they are nothing more than machines; clones if you will.  When speaking on these, I am not talking about musicians who enjoy to reproduce, what we call in business as covers. These are the musicians that try to emulate a sound from either an artist, chamber-musician (I.e a band.) or an actual composer. These are the people who wish to take the easy way out.

2. Musicians - These are the musicians who actually take their time to write, organize, and carefully construct the musical DNA caps and produce fine quality over all music. This type of work is really hard and can be stressful, but very rewarding in the end. These are the people who get signed to labels and make more money than the actual "emulators".  This is in fact hours of work and hair loss.

Check out your local music scenes and try to identify the two types of musicians.


When you are a fan of music - most fans will identify something in 4/4 time and will want to enjoy a song for its snappy rhythm, have no idea about its technical overall value when it comes to the construction sequence. Music theory does not dumb you down and does not ruin your creativity, it simply is used to help open your mind so that you can easily memorize your instrument and unlock its full abilities.  It's how composers write your video game tunes that you have heard over the years and its how these "Symphony's" and "Orchestra's" are able to reproduce the music to your ears, in which most case - you will never be able to pick out and identify every note because there are two types of sounds that are used in music, which smack the left and right side of the brain. It's why there are two sound channels with regular stereos.

So, before trying to bash a musical score, I would highly suggest (from a teacher and educators point of view) to sit down, study the theory (even if you don't play an instrument) so that you can enjoy the music you are currently in favor of, because you may just never know when you will hear a set of note sequences that will make you fall in love with music all over again (yes, I am a victim of this before I began my quest to study this aspect.) I also suggest taking music appreciation courses in your local schools/colleges.

<3

[Munchy]

Jason Isaacs: If you think you know Castlevania, think again.

Dave Cox: Haterz will never understand, Castlevania is in the best shape it's ever been.

Konami: What 25th Anniversary?

Kojima: Don't look at me, I'm just doing my thang

Hey! Don't bring mah boi Isaacs into this. He needed the money like anyone else.

I may not be a musical student, but I have hung around with enough of them, and do my own fair share of dabbling in the medium...
...and he's coming off terribly snobbish.

I think the term "Castlevania Music" is a reality.  One can listen to a few tracks from assorted games, and when one hears one that has that particular 'something' in it, one usually says "This sounds like it would fit in Castlevania".  Hell, we've all done it.  I believe there are a few Actraiser, Ys, and other such tracks that match this.

Also, Kurt hits the nail on the head with his response.  Bravo to Kurt.

This. The fact that he calls old Castlevania music "dated" while touting the benefits of a friggin' ORCHESTRA, A FORM THAT IS RIDICULOUSLY OLD is an astronomical level of hypocrisy.

Also, does LoS's score really need defending at all? It's won like a gazillion awards and has been almost unanimously praised by people who bought the game. Old timers are probably in the minority here.

I think the best thing the sequel could do for its soundtrack without sacrificing its unique nature is at least making level and boss specific themes. There was some very nice music, but hearing the alternating sets of three tracks in pretty much every area drove me up the fucking wall. I'm not saying make it like every other Castlevania, but at least have songs that we can identify as "oh, this is the cave theme" or "ooh, the treasury theme".

[Mike Belmont]

Maybe is just me, but I think that music in modern games are following the same "epic" or "Hollywood-esque" way. As for LoS, they took an spanish movie´s music composer. The result, is a quality and epic soundtrack. Not bad at all, but at least for me, not for a Castlevania game. The OST has some nice tracks, like the aforementioned Belmonts Theme, and my favorite, Final Confrontation. But, if only the music was different, there were one less thing to compare with other games, like God of War, for example. I really like the music from that game (Minotaur Battle, Isle of Creation, and Stalker, from GoW 1, 2 and 3, respectively). But the rest of the music in GoW is... maybe for ambience? Just like LoS. Is there some problem with the music from japanese artist, who have MORE EXPERIENCE composing VG music? Or maybe is not the tendence in modern gaming. Or apart from japanese composers, I prefer Cris Velasco for example. But somebody with experience!!!!!!!

As for the article, I think that our friend Ashasverus has tried since LoS came, to convince all that LoS music is great. Also, I think that such article is from the last year. Yeah, is a great soundtrack, but not for a Castlevania game, period. I hope that Cox will going to say: "Forget all that you know in Castlevania [Lords of Shadow]", to finally redeem himself and bring us a true and complete Castlevania, not a tribute. These are dark days, indeed...

[whitedragon_nall]

What I am simply speaking of when it comes to terms with the game's musical score is a lot of factors.  But to dumb a lot of things down without having to write a huge essay/article -......

......So, before trying to bash a musical score, I would highly suggest (from a teacher and educators point of view) to sit down, study the theory (even if you don't play an instrument) so that you can enjoy the music you are currently in favor of, because you may just never know when you will hear a set of note sequences that will make you fall in love with music all over again (yes, I am a victim of this before I began my quest to study this aspect.) I also suggest taking music appreciation courses in your local schools/colleges.

<3

I think most of us here understand what your saying...me included, but I feel like your implying that in order to love the music in LoS, you must be a musician or have proper ear training. I just don't think that's the way it should be for a video game score. You said yourself that most of your students are tone deaf, so it's not too far fetched to assume most people playing the game are as well. Why create music to appeal to people who can't fully appreciate it? Besides, a lot of us here have said we like the music in LoS, but just prefer the style past composers for the series have used.

Correct me if I misunderstand you.This is just the way I see it.

[Vampire Killer]

I mean, I think its great too, But sheeit, Best SINCE SoTN? Now that's quite a claim.

So you mean to say, games such as Aria of Sorrow, LoI, and CoD's soundtracks... which are among the best in the post SoTN outings- are all trumped by the score which only includes like 5 or so tracks total, which are mostly atmospheric tracks designed to work like in movies.

Uh-huh, ok.

Im sorry, but Nothing in LoS can top tracks like House of Sacred Remains, Dark Palace of Waterfalls, or Abandoned Castle, or Toccata into Blood Soaked Darkness. The track that plays during the hedge maze comes pretty close, since it has some vocalization that reminds me heavily of Ghostly Theatre, but... No. Not even Waterfalls of Agharta, and I consider that my favorite track in LoS

Plus I mean, they are TOTALLY different beasts.

1) I figured I get some shocked responses. That pic made me LOL. A lot. Thank you

2) My favorite songs from LoS are those not on the official CD. Not that it matters, but there are some hauntingly moving pieces in the rest of the score, that I've felt "moved" by.

3) Sorry, but the GBA and DS releases never really did anything for me, musically I mean. I'm not saying they're bad, quite the contrary. Just that they never "moved" me. They are great while playing, but don't evoke any emotion. The only exception being the song that plays during the end credits for CotM.

4) In case you're curious, if I had to pick my Favorite Cv score, I'd say it would have to be Castlevania IV, hands down. Even SotN pales in comparison.

5) I use commas too much.

6) ,

[crisis]

I'm not saying they're bad, quite the contrary. Just that they never "moved" me.

Not even Successor of Fate? 

Castlevania Harmony of Dissonance - Successor of fate (credits)

[Flame]

Or Dracula's fate?

Dracula's Fate - Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow
I mean, if hearing Dracula's fate during the AoS bad ending didnt stir up emotions, then theres something wrong.

Music talk

Keep in mind the majority of the people who will be playing these games are people without any musical training and who might not know the first thing about music. They just want it to sound appealing. Not how many beats there are or how many different notes they can pick out. This isnt a musical exercise, its the music for a videogame. And you simply cannot deny with any sane logic, that Lords of Shadow, the game itself, is presented in a very cinematic manner reminiscent of big budget Hollywood Fantasy movies.

I hate the Lord of the Rings comparison, but thats what it calls to mind. THAT kind of big budget Hollywood fantasy. With epic orchestral tracks and dramatic camera angles and carefully planned and executed mise-en-scene; from the shaky camera, to the low, far away camera angle while Gabriel eclipses the sun while on some majestic ruins in Agharta. In fact, its one of the things I like about LoS. They way it's presented like a big budget high fantasy movie. It looks real cool, and the camera angles are dramatic and really immerse me into the world...
As does the music... There are only a few scant tracks in LoS, nowhere near as many as any other Castlevania game, probably including the classics. Theres:
Epic LoS theme, use for Titan battles and epic scenery traversing, a calm, melancholic track for isolation and platforming, and a few other tracks that all serve their own purpose. Tracks in LoS do not follow a "set the mood for per level" basis. They follow a "set the mood per moment" the games music plays in certain areas to invoke feelings in that particular moment. Which is why many of the tracks are reused throughout the stages in the appropriate areas. (LoS epic theme is used in Titan battles and in expansive "scenery" areas, and Waterfalls of Agharta is used in well, the waterfall, the Clockwork Tower, and the Titan Graveyard, or at least the beginning of it. Dont remember now... In essence, areas where you are alone with little to no enemies, and just platforming. (in both cases vertical) theres the one track that plays during the hedge maze and later in Frankenstein's lab i think; which invokes feelings of "spooky"ness.

That type of strategy is something used in movies. The classic games wre inspired by B grade monster movies, but while they often had film sockets on the title screen, to imply that they game was like a monster movie, it wasnt actually presented cinematically, mainly because it couldnt. And it slowly lost that little quirk to it, since it never really emphasized it anyway. It was more a mod towards its inspiration.

Compare LoS to other 3Dvania games like LoI, CoD, or even CV64/LoD. Those games are structured more like traditional videogames. Levels with sometimes little meaning to them, such as, why there are so many chapels in Walter's House of Sacred Remains, and yet we see very few actual tombs, why he has a teleporter hub, or why levels are structured the way they are even in 2D vanias. Its something we take for granted, but which is simply the way of platforming. LoS tries to make sense of EVERYTHING. You wont find a platform that ISN'T part of some structure or something. Its supposed to look more realistic, and so are it's monsters. (Those fucking giant spiders... *shudder* ) As well as it's level placement and layout/pacing.

I may not be a music major, or know much about it, but I DO have a pretty good ear for it, and I HAVE studied Cinema, and the way things are arranged, including the mise-en-scene in conjunction with the music, to create moods in the viewer or just create general atmospheres to a particular area or scene. The Clockwork Tower would be nowhere as interesting to me as it is, without the empty isolationist feeling provided by the mist at the bottom of the tower, with the only real sounds being the turning of the cogs and the occasional spark of electricity between them, with Waterfalls of Agharta playing in the background,providing a melancholy, almost sad, feeling for the experience. In fact without those elements, I would probably consider it pretty damn bland.

But I assume you're one of them kids who sits in front of fruity loops and allows a program to do the work for you instead of picking up a book and an actual instrument and observing what a computer cannot do. Any one can write music, but it takes an actual composer, with emotion to right a piece that will shake the foundation of generations to come.

This is the single most pompous conceited thing I have EVER heard. Not everybody has the talent to be a composer, or even the privilege to have instruments, or the various instruments plus people required to make music. Musical programs on the computer offer a lot of freedom to people who otherwise would not be able to express themselves musically. programs such as Fruity Loops, FL Studios, or even Vocaloid. You shouldnt be so quick to judge people who use them. They are an advancement in music that should be appreciated for what it is and what it allows, rather than decried because someone who uses it "is not a real composer".

By that logic, people who do their art on the computer are not real artists because they use programs like photoshop, or even flash.

[DragonSlayr81]

You said yourself that most of your students are tone deaf, so it's not too far fetched to assume most people playing the game are as well. Why create music to appeal to people who can't fully appreciate it?

EXACTLY. The kind of thinking where the "elite" fraction themselves from the whole, with their, "Uh-huh", finger snapping, smug attitudes. The kind that could look at paint splatter on canvas and see the depth of the artist's souls, and how it's a representation for childhood neglect and lack of a mother figure, finger snaps in unison, "oh-ho-ho, la-dee-dah", it's so wonderful to be in such a neat little club. An exclusive little club, where people can act like the little things THEY all "get" are their own little inside jokes. Jokes that peons of the world, "everymen", "laymen", are too unrefined to get. Because, the unrefined, undefined, just don't get "it". And because they don't get it, they are inferior. Inferior to the point that their taste doesn't matter. Their taste is of less worth.  Puh-LEASE!!! 

[Sindra]

I must be wearing rose-tinted headphones or something.

This made me chuckle.


The thing with Lords of Shadow's soundtrack is not so much that it's bad, but just that it's lacking. Belmont's Theme & Final Confrontation stood out because they had some very distinct tones and harsher melody that caught the player's attention with fast cello and violin work and hard percussion. Alot of the other tracks were good, but in my opinion they were missing that same distinctness and didn't have much that perked the player's ear. That's mainly where LoS's soundtrack falters, in my opinion. Most older Castlevania tunes had something distinct in their tunes that caught your attention, even if maybe they weren't 100% appropriate for the environment. Who would think the jazzy beats of Crystal Teardrops would have any place in an underground waterway beneath Dracula's demon Castle in the year 1797, but it was mellow and smooth and just made me feel so damn comfortable playing that it became my favorite track of SotN's large repertoire regardless.

I think that a majority of the music from LoS shouldn't be discarded, but rather added to. Take those same tracks, and add another layer of violin notes or perhaps some bells, and I REALLY think that LoS could have benefited from some piano injected into some of those tracks, or even organ work. I can understand the desire for atmospheric background music, but Super Castlevania IV managed to do it just fine with much more memorable a soundtrack. (I mean, god....how can anyone say that Forest of Monsters or Clockwork Mansion or fdamn In the Castle are NOT mood themes?!)

I dare someone like Jake "Virt" Kaufman or Goat to take some of the blander tunes of LoS, tinker with them a bit so they stand out more, and post them all over Cox's twitter and be like "Here you go. I fixed them."

That would be fantastic.





Oh, and jestercolony....get off your goddamn high horse, ok? You sound like a right pompous jackass with your condescending talk and I can tell you that I, amongst probable others, do not appreciate being looked down upon because we happen to have different tastes in music. And that Fruity Loops comment makes me want to punch you in the face, because I used that back in the day as a stepping stone to re-learning music theory and improve, and it's jackass attitudes like yours that made me stop.