Topic: Castlevania - The Plot Hole Thread

[Nagumo]

The story of the Castlevania series is said to be both very intriguing because of the story that stretches over a thousand year period, but also very complex and even contradicting according to some. Because of the many different teams that each worked on different Castlevania games, there were also many different visions on the storyline, which resulted in them shaping it as they so pleased. We fans were left with a lot of questions and mind boggling paradoxes such as the 100 year rule. Luckily there was IGA who saved the day and fixed almost (if not all of) these problems but as a drawback, he left us with plot holes that he never bothered to fully explain (because...?). In this case I obviously mean gaps in the story and/or plot points that are not really clear and not contradictions (honestly people who think IGA is the timeline antichrist are just fooling themselves and blaming him for their ignorance). Since Castlevania has to deal a lot with such unexplained/vague plot points, I thought it would be a good idea to make a thread about this in which we could discuss and maybe find a satisfying answer to them. I learned that more often then not, their was an explanation for things I didn't quite understood about the story, so maybe this won't turn out to be a pointless speculation/conjecture thread. Everyone can list something here that they have been wondering about (and so shall I) and then we can discuss it.

For instance, why was Saint Germain even present in Curse of Darkness? One might say that he was obviously there to prevent Hector from pursuing Isaac and ultimately becoming Dracula's new host body and thus change the course of things. But didn't this Germain dude also state that he wasn't allowed to chance the future? He wasn't allowed to act upon reality nor speaking the truth (still trying to figure out how that works since that would technically mean that he has to lie every word), so if he can't do that why did he even bother trying to stop Hector?                                                             

[Ahasverus]

Don't try to deny it, IGA screwed the storyline when he took the powers from the Belmont family and began to use one shot characters to have quick sequels with vague stories, and thanks to that now we have an unbereable cast of unknown people with a vast cast of unknown old heroes (Why the hell not a single Belmont remember it's ancestor life? why do we have to play each time with a different character without a good background? Why don't we know how their life began or ended? Why are they so bland that we barely have some affection for the most of them? - I think that the universal affection to  Alucard and Richter comes from the backstory and treatment to their personalities that Iga gave them -).
The lots one shot side characters makes everything worse, each one suposeddly has a backstory and a role on the universal order of castlevania plot, but they are so abandoned or bad treated that the answers they give are far far less than the unbereable questions that they put in the already complicated timeline, and the worst part, Iga doesn't like (doesn't know?) how to fill the holes with good and well timed explanations (Why do we need a sequel to Cv III 20 years latter? why not concentrate in the recent plot holes? Why the need to complicate the simple story of old games with more confusion with the direct sequels?).
Iga hits and runs. He makes a mess, he runs from that mess and create a mess in a time when there's no mess, and the cycle begins again.
I'm not saying that past developers didn't do that, but that was the early 90's when gaming in general was a mess (Final Fantasy anyone?) but Iga was in the transition to mature story oriented games, and he made things worse than they were.

We need a GOOD director for the Classic Saga (LOS comes apart from this mess) who cares about the SENSE of the storyline, the exact opossite to this nonsense:

Iga:

Did you know that my game creation is not based upon the timeline? I come up with the gameplay system and then try to find the right timeline. There was one product where I actually started off with the timeline - that was Lament of Innocence on PS2.
But I always come up with the gameplay system first. Currently I do take control of my team members but I want to think about the gameplay system first - I do complain and make a lot of comments to it. But once the team comes up with the new game system and then I think it's right to put it in 1999, then I will tell a story in that timeline.

That was bullsh**t. He doesn't care about story.

[X]

True and he did say that the game itself comes first in his mind followed by the story afterwards. How the HELL does that work!? At least in my game concepts the story comes first THEN everything else follows suit. It's much more simple that way. Like IGA I am also a perfectionist but I think the guy must have some masochistic tendencies about doing things the hard way rather then the right way. I'm sure it's possible to do a game first then the story but if you don't know how, then don't bother!

I could go on another rant about his really BIG plothole store: Lament of Innocence (In terms of Dracula's origins rather then the proper Brahm Stoker's tale. But I already did that when I joined up. 

-X

[Lumas]

The story of the Castlevania series is said to be both very intriguing because of the story that stretches over a thousand year period, but also very complex and even contradicting according to some. Because of the many different teams that each worked on different Castlevania games, there were also many different visions on the storyline, which resulted in them shaping it as they so pleased. We fans were left with a lot of questions and mind boggling paradoxes such as the 100 year rule. Luckily there was IGA who saved the day and fixed almost (if not all of) these problems but as a drawback, he left us with plot holes that he never bothered to fully explain (because...?). In this case I obviously mean gaps in the story and/or plot points that are not really clear and not contradictions (honestly people who think IGA is the timeline antichrist are just fooling themselves and blaming him for their ignorance). Since Castlevania has to deal a lot with such unexplained/vague plot points, I thought it would be a good idea to make a thread about this in which we could discuss and maybe find a satisfying answer to them. I learned that more often then not, their was an explanation for things I didn't quite understood about the story, so maybe this won't turn out to be a pointless speculation/conjecture thread. Everyone can list something here that they have been wondering about (and so shall I) and then we can discuss it.

For instance, why was Saint Germain even present in Curse of Darkness? One might say that he was obviously there to prevent Hector from pursuing Isaac and ultimately becoming Dracula's new host body and thus change the course of things. But didn't this Germain dude also state that he wasn't allowed to chance the future? He wasn't allowed to act upon reality nor speaking the truth (still trying to figure out how that works since that would technically mean that he has to lie every word), so if he can't do that why did he even bother trying to stop Hector?                                                             

One thing I wasn't clear on was the Dracula Wraith in HoD, obviously now that I taken the time to investigate and that it was pointed out to me that it was in fact not Dracula I feel ive learned something new.

Im still unclear on how the premature awakenings work, I think honestly at this moment think what IGA stated back in 2005 makes a lot more sense given the new entry within the series then having a rule but again right now with the contradicting interviews I dont even know if there is a rule or whats up. If they abolished the 100 year rule thing,which I think should be done it would eliminate half of the confusion, then it would work perfectly and finally came out and said "okay from now on forget that 100 year thing". Hopefully we will get answer to that soon as well as that whole coming back every tens years or so in the 1800s since we were to believe that games like CotM, LoD and 64 were placed back into the timeline (least thats what ive made of it) some people think they are still "gaidens"

Ive actually never given too much thought to St Germain but wasnt he able to interfere directly at one point hence why you fight him, perhaps that was his plan all a long or rather maybe thats how time played out perhaps it was destined for those two to fight thus altering time so Hector wouldn't be able to become Dracula's new host? Time is a very touchy subject, the Legacy of Kain series managed to do it wonderfully but it has only been introduced in CoD and judgment, if you wanna count it in as well, for the Castlevania series. Hopefully they will explain and expand more upon, maybe Germain was introduced as sort of a test the waters thing to see how fans would react to the time traveling thing in Castlevania?

[darkwzrd4]

True and he did say that the game itself comes first in his mind followed by the story afterwards. How the HELL does that work!? At least in my game concepts the story comes first THEN everything else follows suit. It's much more simple that way. Like IGA I am also a perfectionist but I think the guy must have some masochistic tendencies about doing things the hard way rather then the right way. I'm sure it's possible to do a game first then the story but if you don't know how, then don't bother!

I could go on another rant about his really BIG plothole store: Lament of Innocence (In terms of Dracula's origins rather then the proper Brahm Stoker's tale. But I already did that when I joined up. 

-X

That is the stupid and chaotic way to do it.  Anyone with at least a hint of common sense knows that when adding something to a story, you look at the story so far and then you develop what you are going to add.  Also, if you do it IGA's way, before you translate your idea into a game, you look at how what you did fits and then edit the new stuff so that it fits with the already existing story.

[X]

I write stories so it's easy for me to do it this way rather then the game first then the story.

-X

[Nagumo]

That was bullsh**t. He doesn't care about story.

I'm not going to have an argument about that bastard IGA, whetever you like his storytelling or not and think he is just doing it because he wants YOUR money even though you don't like it (though you keep spending it on his shitty games anyway) is entirely your opinion.                  

Just kidding, though let's just refrain from IGA bashing. I already get it.         

I could go on another rant about his really BIG plothole store: Lament of Innocence (In terms of Dracula's origins rather then the proper Brahm Stoker's tale. But I already did that when I joined up. 
-X

Do tell. 

Hopefully we will get answer to that soon as well as that whole coming back every tens years or so in the 1800s since we were to believe that games like CotM, LoD and 64 were placed back into the timeline (least thats what ive made of it) some people think they are still "gaidens"

Heh, so you noticed those little references to non-canon games as well? Cornell's inclusion in Judgment was a pretty big hint but did you also notice the little reference that Order of Ecclesia made to Circle of the Moon? Just to name something.       

Ive actually never given too much thought to St Germain but wasnt he able to interfere directly at one point hence why you fight him, perhaps that was his plan all a long or rather maybe thats how time played out perhaps it was destined for those two to fight thus altering time so Hector wouldn't be able to become Dracula's new host?   

Hmm, I like that destiny part which I think would work quite well since fate actually plays some kind off role in the game. Though, I still don't get two things:

- How does that "not speaking the truth" thing work? Wouldn't he already break that rule if he would introduce himself to somebody else? 
- If it was destiny that changed the future, then why would Saint Germain travel through time? Fate seems to be a pretty unreliable factor to me.                 

[Lumas]

Heh, so you noticed those little references to non-canon games as well? Cornell's inclusion in Judgment was a pretty big hint but did you also notice the little reference that Order of Ecclesia made to Circle of the Moon? Just to name something.       
 
Hmm, I like that destiny part which I think would work quite well since fate actually plays some kind off role in the game. Though, I still don't get two things:

- How does that "not speaking the truth" thing work? Wouldn't he already break that rule if he would introduce himself to somebody else? 
- If it was destiny that changed the future, then why would Saint Germain travel through time? Fate seems to be a pretty unreliable factor to me.                 

Yeah thats what makes me confused about their place in the timeline, that really needs clearing up but you wouldn't have to waste money on a game to do that (though another game would be nice). A simple official website in both american and japanese with an updated timeline would suffice. My only explanation and speculation to why Dracula appeared (keep in mind this is just my opinion on the matter) is that when Nostradamus predicted Dracula return in 1999 back in the 1500s Death started to get a little worried that Dracula hadn't manage to defeat the Belmonts and now its the 1800s but wait the Belmonts are in hiding now and since they could prematurely awaken him, though not at full power, surely no one else could stand in their way. So he started scrambling to resurrect him but descendants (Morris, Fernandez and Schienders,) other children of the night (Cornell), people with new magical powers (Shanoa),  capable of destroying him and other hunters (Graves and Baldwins) came out and managed to defeat him.

The destiny thing is the only thing that I can think of that works but you are absolutely right that whole "I cant tell the truth" bit but again this can be explained simply that you cannot trust Railroad Tycoons and are not suppose to trust them or their mustaches. But seriously I dont know they really need to explain that.

Thats where things get tricky with time. In their future or wherever Germain comes from (obviously from the time where Railroad Tycoons are in fashion) who ever he works for knew that it was destiny to send Germain back so that he may interfere and thus keep Hector from becoming Drac's new host. It was already predetermined that Germain returned, all his actions, his words everything had already played out that way so he could keep the future on the right track. Kinda like how Kyle Reece was suppose to go back in time to save Sarah Conner so that not only could she give birth to John but also give a means for John Conner to be born, since Kyle is his dad. Course thats the only way i can figure it.

Hope that last part makes sense. If not sorry....

[X]

In other words everything is preordained. The are no coincidences in life, no mistakes and no accidents. Like Quigon said in Star Wars: TfM. Everything is written out in stone. Even the multiple paths of the future, though the future can be changed all of the possible changes are already written out in gods great plan, so to speak. I guess that's the way things are when you're ALL knowing, ALL seeing.

-X

[Lumas]

In other words everything is preordained. The are no coincidences in life, no mistakes and no accidents. Like Quigon said in Star Wars: TfM. Everything is written out in stone. Even the multiple paths of the future, though the future can be changed all of the possible changes are already written out in gods great plan, so to speak. I guess that's the way things are when you're ALL knowing, ALL seeing.

-X

Not a religious person but yes that kind of what I was getting at.

[Nagumo]

In other words everything is preordained. The are no coincidences in life, no mistakes and no accidents. Like Quigon said in Star Wars: TfM. Everything is written out in stone. Even the multiple paths of the future, though the future can be changed all of the possible changes are already written out in gods great plan, so to speak. I guess that's the way things are when you're ALL knowing, ALL seeing.

-X

I never liked the idea of destiny or fate or whatever since it results in the story losing all of its suspense.The prediction of Dracula's final defeat in 1999 was pretty stupid. Makes you wonder why the guy is even trying if he already knows that he is going to kick the bucket eventually.           

[X]

That's the funny thing about villains. Even though it's futile, they'll always try, try again.

-X 

[darkwzrd4]

That's the funny thing about villains. Even though it's futile, they'll always try, try again.

-X 

The heros would be doing the same thing if the roles were reversed.

[MeSako]

That's the funny thing about villains. Even though it's futile, they'll always try, try again.

-X 

He is'nt only fighting Belmonts (and there relatives), but also fate.
But as we know he lost to fate.
But we also know that he can come back, just that he has lost his own body and castle..

[Nagumo]

And now for something completely different. 

Why did Dracula came back as a ghost in CoD instead of just having a normal body like all of his other ressurections? Any reason for that aside from just cuz?

Oh, I believe this was also the case in OoE, and Barlowe was used as a host.