Topic: Castlevania - The Plot Hole Thread

[crisis]

In Reply To #74,

I had that idea first =/

[Danial]

Perhaps, as Dracula was witnessing his final moments, the crimson stone finally manifested its true power; the entity known as "Chaos" offers him the option of having eternal life and limitless power, far more than that of a regular Vampire, and he accepts this, and upon accepting the agreement, and earning his Lord of Darkness title and all his super-powers (that make Alucard not go after him directly in CV3), he is now a vessel of Chaos.

I like this idea

[darkwzrd4]

Perhaps, as Dracula was witnessing his final moments, the crimson stone finally manifested its true power; the entity known as "Chaos" offers him the option of having eternal life and limitless power, far more than that of a regular Vampire, and he accepts this, and upon accepting the agreement, and earning his Lord of Darkness title and all his super-powers (that make Alucard not go after him directly in CV3), he is now a vessel of Chaos.
   

Well, that would explain a few things.

[Reinhart77]

I'm going to have to re-read the CoD manga with this version of the timeline in mind, and try to spot that reference to the dark gods.  I found it odd that the manga made no references to Lisa or Alucard (until he was at the count's doorstop).  I always imagined Dracula, Lisa, Alucard, Hector, and Isaac living as one big happy "family" type thing until Lisa's death.  Hector was getting along with Dracula just fine until he started attacking the humans, which I had assumed was as a result of Lisa's death.  When Hector talked with Dracula at the end of the game, Dracula didn't go off about how the humans had killed his wife, but rather about how they judged him first as Nagumo had said.  I also thought the Radio Drama would be an excellent time for Alucard to namedrop Hector or Isaac when talking to Lyudmil, but that never happenned.  I kept expecting all these references (especially considering just about the whole cast of CoD and Dracula's curse made a cameo in the manga), but they never came.  It does seem likely that Lisa's death and Dracula attacking with his Devil Forgemaster generals did occur in separate time periods, making it plausible that the events of Legends could have taken place.

[Archangel]

Yeah.... it would make sense..... seeing as Dracula was so easy to defeat in Legends... and then becoming all that powerful with three powerful forms.

Maybe Chaos was inside the Crimson Stone? I don´t know if anyone here played Shadow of Memories/Shadow of Destiny... it´s story is based on alchemy, too. There was a Beeing known as Hommonculus that was trapped inside the Philosophers Stone... (despite the games´ alchemists assumption that the Stone was needed to CREATE it... but won´t spoil anything... good game with a good story btw, I recommend it)...

[crisis]

[Archangel]

Okay, scrap my idea - what if Dracula had to die to become more powerful?

[Danial]

For some reason I always pictured Lisa not really living with Dracula.  Any relationship they had would be one of those "late night vampire encounters" type things.  I don't think she would have been tolerated for as long as she was if she was running her healing business out of Dracula's Castle.  I think this also helps explain why Dracula wasn't able to protect her, or didn't even know she had died right away.

I don't think Alucard ever met Hector or Isaac.  I was looking at my timeline. Legends happens in 1450, and if Alucard does go into hibernation (or at least stays in his crypt) until CV3 in 1476, then he definitely wouldn't have met them since Hector was born in 1455 and Isaac was born in 1452.

[Nagumo]

I'm going to have to re-read the CoD manga with this version of the timeline in mind, and try to spot that reference to the dark gods.

It's right at the beginning and I think I should also mention that they are called evil lords in the manga rather then gods (dunno which translation is the correct one) but it comes down to the same thing.   

It does seem likely that Lisa's death and Dracula attacking with his Devil Forgemaster generals did occur in separate time periods, making it plausible that the events of Legends could have taken place.

I'm really interested what how IGA feels about that. In the 2005, around the time that the CoD manga and Kojima's Prelude to Revenge comic got released, he obviously intented that Lisa was killed shortly before CV3. Though this was not clearly stated in the comics in any way, I have to admit that it was kind of alluded to.

In the manga, Isaac at one point recalls Dracula once protected the land but its inhabitants betrayed him because they killed his wife. While he is saying that, a picture of a woman hanging to a burning (!) cross can be seen. This scene seems to imply that Lisa died not so long ago, though no specific date is given, so it could be either way. But it was probably orginally intented that way.

In Prelude to Revenge, Hector indirectly makes mention of Lisa's death and recalls that there was "a lamentalable incident". 

Though no mention when it took place or if Hector was even there was made but it was probably once again intented for Lisa to die in the 1470's.         

The timeline from 2005 support this, which would rule out any possibility that Legends would be included. However, the website at the offical Japanese website (which I believe was made one year or so after the old one) removed this date while every other game and event was still included. So the statement that Lisa died around that time is no longer offical. Not to mention that the radio drama states that her execution occured 20 years earlier.         

I thought I would mention this before someone else would bring this up as an argument.                                                 
     
Oh, and I noticed something interesting while reading the English manual from Legends. Sonia's profile states that she was the first of the Belmont Clan to become a vampire hunter. This would heavily condradict with Lament if it wasn't for the fact that the Japanese manual states she was only the first female Belmont to become one.   

                    
     

[Reinhart77]

You know, I think I know what the trigger was that caused Dracula to send Hector and Isaac out to crush Wallachia, turn it into a desolate place, and then intended on marching on the rest of Europe.  It was the attempted coup or rebellion that Grant was a part of, not Lisa's death.  The Japanese Dracula's Curse said that a group of locals were dissatisfied with the situation.  They basically "disapproved" of Dracula's dark ways and thus "judged" him.  The people probably lived in fear for years, but weren't willing to actually act until the enigmatic Grant helped give them the courage to do so and a group went out to covertly try to overthrow the count.  In the manga, Isaac talked about how the people were essentially ungrateful to Lord Dracula despite how he had always protected the land.  Grant and many of his compatriots were of course captured and turned into monsters.  The coup probably had popular support (Grant was after all the man of the people), so he turned his wrath on the populace.  Then the Eastern Orthodox church sends in their men and they are handily dealt with.  He probably dwelled on Lisa's fate the whole time and used it as part of his justification that humans should be eradicated. 

Here's Grant's entry in the Japanese manual from the Castlevania realm:

Around the same time, within Wallachia, a group of rebels were corvertly plotting to overthrow Count Dracula. However their human strength was no help and they were no match for Dracula's dark powers. Some of men were teared to pieces, others were sentenced to be skewered and some were transformed into hideous monsters. Grant Dinesti, carefree man from Wallachia was among them.

There's another line about Dracula wanting even more power than what he already had.  Selling his body and soul to the devil might be essentially his decision to use the Crimson Stone and lose his humanity.  But he wanted even more power than that, which may be where the dark lords come into play, which probably happened right after the coup attempt.

Those who tainted their hand once don't know when to stop. Count Dracula was not sastified with the power he already had after selling his soul and body to the devil and he wanted to have more.

[Reinhart77]

Oh, and I noticed something interesting while reading the English manual from Legends. Sonia's profile states that she was the first of the Belmont Clan to become a vampire hunter. This would heavily condradict with Lament if it wasn't for the fact that the Japanese manual states she was only the first female Belmont to become one.   

                    
     

Do you know where to find a translation of the Japanese Legends manual and text available on the web?  I could have sworn remembering reading about Sonia's grandfather, but couldn't find a translation on the Castlevania Realm.

[Nagumo]

No translation as far as I know. But if you have the text, a couple of online translators can help a lot. It's actually suprising what kind of stuff they left out of the English translation. I discovered that the Belmonts were a noble familly according to the manual for example.             

[X]

All this plothole talk certainly get's your mind going, doesn't it? 

I personally think Legends could still fit with the rest of the series. But from what was mentioned earlier about legends taking place in 1450 doesn't quite add up. Before IGA released his personal timeline, the Dungeon had the konami timeline which made more sense. From what I can remember Legends took place in 1472, not 1450. And in the Brahm Stoker novel, Vlad Tepes III became count Dracula in 1462, only 10 years before Legends. Also I read that CV3 took place in 1492; twenty years after Legends which would give Trevor enough time to grow and mature before hunting Dracula. Now that's all very convenient for me. But this also opens up a can of worms as the other games contain premature resurrections and other such tid-bits that contradict the series itself. But personally the aforementioned above just fits with Brahm Stoker's book which in my mind is the proper origin of Dracula and essentially the 'Bible' of the castlevania series in general. I'm sure the original creators of the first CV game; Vampirekiller would understand.

-X   

[Reinhart77]

yeah, it basically seems like the Castlevania continuum could work with or without Legends just fine, just rearrange the years stuff happened in and you can make it make sense either way.  i still lament that Judgment didn't come with an official timeline.  having dates for Grant's coup, Sypha being sent out to Castlevania, Lisa's death etc would be great data points.  but i think they're purposely leaving the 1400's and the 1800's a little ambiguous just because they're not sure where they want to go with all this and don't box themselves into a corner when making future games.  oh, and they want to be vague just so they can change their mind later on about something and say, well, it was only hinted at but not outright said.  ugh.  so it's up to us to make sense about all of this, connect the dots, and decide for ourselves what we'd rather believe until we find out positively otherwise.

[Mobius]

Now that's all very convenient for me. But this also opens up a can of worms as the other games contain premature resurrections and other such tid-bits that contradict the series itself.

OK. Let the nay-saying little demon here pipe in and remind y'all that premature resurrections (....heh. sounds dirty) in the series do NOT violate the 100 year rule. The rule states specifically that once every hundred years evil is given a chance to regenerate and manifest itself on the earthly plane once again. This does not stop followers of said evil from orchestrating attempts to prematurely restore the darkness that compels them through various means. In this case, servants of the lord of all darkness, Vlad Tepes Dracula, attempting to raise him from the dead before he is able to arise on his own once every hundred years. Never mind how most of the subplots under Igarashi-sama's direction end up being empty, loopy, and totally unnecessary to the overall storyline. The point is, they are still very much plausible. Shaft's spirit overcoming Richter and using him to raise Castlevania as its new master? Hey, it works. I am tired of hearing that attempts to raise Dracula in between his centennial wake-up calls flat-out contradict the storyline because they don't happen ONE HUNDRED YEARS APART. We need reasons to play these games, and it's up to developers to come up with workable reasons to bring out another title. And you know what? So far it's been working out fine.

....I mean, you know. Apart from the end product leaving us with more questions than satisfaction. But hey, that's life in Castlevania.

...they want to be vague just so they can change their mind later on about something and say, well, it was only hinted at but not outright said.  ugh.  so it's up to us to make sense about all of this, connect the dots, and decide for ourselves what we'd rather believe until we find out positively otherwise.

As fine a point as this may be, it is exactly this that leads to the most disappointment, frustration, and anger from the fan base. You see, by deciding for ourselves what we want to believe and sticking to it faithfully -- F A I T H F U L L Y, mind you -- fans react so negatively when they find out otherwise. Now it's interesting the phrasing that you used. ~ Until we find out positively otherwise. It's never positive, dude, because we've all stuck so faithfully to what in our hearts we have taken to interpret as the truth that we hate being corrected and proven wrong. George Lucas did it to his whole fan base with Star Wars, and Konami is doing it to us. So you wanna preserve your ideals? Stand by what you know in your heart to be true? People, that's what we come here for. To pull up a seat and say, 'You know the way they handled this particular plot point was lame. I think it would've come off better this way.' You ain't wrong, comrade. You are most certainly not wrong.