Topic: Save your criticism

[Ahasverus]

I'd argue Rondo was at the same scale that SOTN, but still both are what I consider the greatest achievements of the series (thank you Toru Hagihara, you magnificent bastard). You could feel bth of those were designed not thrown together. That makes them especial.

[Pfil]

Indeed, there's something unique about both of them, and it's impossible to argue about both of them being artistic masterpieces.

[X]

When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc.

I never did play Rondo nor did I hear about it till much later on, but I had played CV: Dracula X for the SNES prior to SotN. And when I saw the prologue stage with the familiar blue-suited sprite of Richter I was quite ecstatic. My mind was like "Dude! That's Richter f**king Belmont!". And the familiarities kept on rolling in from there. I had no problems with SotN and thought it was brilliant.

[Pfil]

It is indeed brilliant.

[DoctaMario]

Vampire Killer would like a word with you. It did exploration and multiple kinds of weapons from year one of the series. Even before CV2.

I don't entirely agree about emphasizing exploration OVER action and platforming. SotN had plenty of both. The only thing they did to nerf platforming was getting rid of death pits. I would have preferred if they had kept them, but I can also imagine people bitching about having them, too. And if anything, the action is more intense than any of the previous titles up until you level up. And THAT is where they fucked up the Metroid formula and the action.

Simon in 2 versions of CV1 uses main weapons other than the Vampire Killer. The Vampire Killer wasn't even part of the story until CV3. And speaking of CV3, let's not forget that as early as stage 3 you don't even have to play the rest of the game as Trevor. The difference in SotN is that you aren't given the option to switch back after you start playing as Alucard.

I did find the RPG elements a little odd at first, but even that does have roots in CV2 as Crisis mentioned.

I honestly didn't even think about Vampire Killer. I've never even made it thru that one, so I can't really say for sure. But the exploration/platforming/action was a lot more balanced out in Simon's Quest. In SoTN it really WAS more about exploring and find the items you need to get to the next section.

The RPG elements were heavy in Symphony compared to Simon's Quest. You leveled up in SQ twice at the most and the experience system barely plays a role. In SoTN, having to equip items and having to worry about leveling up to increase your HP and stats so you can beat bosses/enemies is a big part of the game. If you don't pay attention to those RPG elements, you won't get thru the game. And once you get to the right level and get the right weapons, the enemies are little more than road blocks. The RPG elements are pretty dictatorial in Symphony whereas they were all but nonexistent in the classic games even when they were there. 

The platforming is pretty nerfed in Symphony. Taking out death pits removes most of the risk, and most of the time, it's merely an obstacle. The enemy placement doesn't make it any more difficult really, because Alucard has so many abilities he can use to overcome it. Platforming in Symphony is, in a lot of cases, kind of like those crank wheels in LoS, just an obstacle that's there to make for some busywork. There's really little challenge to it and as such it defeats the purpose of having it in a way. In the classic games, the platforming was tightly designed. Enemies were placed to make it even more challenging, but that doesn't really occur in SoTN. 

As far as the "helper spirits" in CV3 are concerned, they're not as good overall as Trevor is. Sure, you don't HAVE to play as Trevor, but he's the best overall character, so why WOULDN'T you use him? That's kind of a weak argument to make, especially as Trevor is the focus of the game in the first place.

I'm not really shitting on Symphony, but there are things about it that weren't really terribly "castlevania-like" at the time.

[X]

The RPG elements were heavy in Symphony compared to Simon's Quest. You leveled up in SQ twice at the most and the experience system barely plays a role.

you go higher then that. I leveled up Simon a total of six times (and I'm sure you can get even more), however I had sacrificed a lot of time just to do that and didn't get the best ending.

[DoctaMario]

you go higher then that. I leveled up Simon a total of six times (and I'm sure you can get even more), however I had sacrificed a lot of time just to do that and didn't get the best ending.

I think I basically leveled up until you don't get any experience anymore, and I thought it was only twice, but you may be right on this one, cuz I can't for the life of me remember.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I'm not really shitting on Symphony, but there are things about it that weren't really terribly "castlevania-like" at the time.

Well that was the goal of the CV team to make Castlevania more accessible to the public who viewed the series as so hard core. And besides it was just a side story (hence the X).

[X]

I think I basically leveled up until you don't get any experience anymore, and I thought it was only twice, but you may be right on this one, cuz I can't for the life of me remember.

This is how it's done essentially: In different areas of the game you can level up. The easiest way to tell that you are in a new area is by looking at the different colored skeletons. Level up in the first area (the one with the light blue skeletons), then once you've succeeded, move onto the next area (with the grey skeletons), so-on and so-fourth. You can only level up once per area so this is about the only way you can do this. Unless you go to a different area first (say  with the grey skeletons) then you can earn two level ups. I could be mistaken on this as I can't remember if I did it once just to see what the result would be.

[DoctaMario]

This is how it's done essentially: In different areas of the game you can level up. The easiest way to tell that you are in a new area is by looking at the different colored skeletons. Level up in the first area (the one with the light blue skeletons), then once you've succeeded, move onto the next area (with the grey skeletons), so-on and so-fourth. You can only level up once per area so this is about the only way you can do this. Unless you go to a different area first (say  with the grey skeletons) then you can earn two level ups. I could be mistaken on this as I can't remember if I did it once just to see what the result would be.

Oh wow, I had no idea it was area-based!

[Inccubus]

I honestly didn't even think about Vampire Killer. I've never even made it thru that one, so I can't really say for sure. But the exploration/platforming/action was a lot more balanced out in Simon's Quest. In SoTN it really WAS more about exploring and find the items you need to get to the next section.

IMO the exploration/action balance in VK is far better than either SQ or SotN. The only real difference I see between SQ & SotN is the inclusion of death pits and assload of reading. All you're really doing in SQ is exploring to get the items you need to get to the next section.

The RPG elements were heavy in Symphony compared to Simon's Quest. You leveled up in SQ twice at the most and the experience system barely plays a role. In SoTN, having to equip items and having to worry about leveling up to increase your HP and stats so you can beat bosses/enemies is a big part of the game. If you don't pay attention to those RPG elements, you won't get thru the game. And once you get to the right level and get the right weapons, the enemies are little more than road blocks. The RPG elements are pretty dictatorial in Symphony whereas they were all but nonexistent in the classic games even when they were there.

Leveling affects both your HP and the amount of damage you take from enemies.
It actually does play a very big role in SQ too. You just don't usually notice it. Play the latest SQ retranslation patch. Get to the end of the game and switch back to the leather whip. The Skeletons near the ruins of Castlevania take like 8 or more hits to kill even at level 6.
The problem with SotN is that the RPG elements weren't handled well, not the elements themselves.

The platforming is pretty nerfed in Symphony. Taking out death pits removes most of the risk, and most of the time, it's merely an obstacle. The enemy placement doesn't make it any more difficult really, because Alucard has so many abilities he can use to overcome it. Platforming in Symphony is, in a lot of cases, kind of like those crank wheels in LoS, just an obstacle that's there to make for some busywork. There's really little challenge to it and as such it defeats the purpose of having it in a way. In the classic games, the platforming was tightly designed. Enemies were placed to make it even more challenging, but that doesn't really occur in SoTN. 

I agree about the way the platforming was nerfed, but I totally disagree about the enemy placement. Enemy placement is the only element that gives you any challenge at all before you level up or find abilities. Before that their placement is actually pretty well thought out for the most part. Before you level up or get way better equipment the enemies are anything but busy work. Certainly they are far more interesting than a crank wheel at least for a time. In the classic games (except SQ) the platforming and the enemy placement are parts of a whole. Take away either one and you have a problem. It's the opposite in SQ. The enemy placement is atrocious and only the platforming is a challenge and not in a good way because the level design is pretty bad too. The problem with SotN isn't enemy placement, it's the fact that the player is free to level grind to the point that they become moot.

As far as the "helper spirits" in CV3 are concerned, they're not as good overall as Trevor is. Sure, you don't HAVE to play as Trevor, but he's the best overall character, so why WOULDN'T you use him? That's kind of a weak argument to make, especially as Trevor is the focus of the game in the first place.

That wasn't my main point anyway. And, by your own logic, you've nullified your problem with SotN not having a Belmont as the main character because a Belmont wasn't the focus of the game. Hell, SotN is practically a gaiden. And when I say practically I mean that for all intents and purposes it is a side story to RoB. When I started considering it as such I accepted it a lot more easily. Believe me when I first read that you weren't playing as a Belmont my gut reaction was WTF!?

I'm not really shitting on Symphony, but there are things about it that weren't really terribly "castlevania-like" at the time.

Agreed.

[DoctaMario]

IMO the exploration/action balance in VK is far better than either SQ or SotN. The only real difference I see between SQ & SotN is the inclusion of death pits and assload of reading. All you're really doing in SQ is exploring to get the items you need to get to the next section.

I'll have to check it out. It and Haunted Castle are the only CV games available to us that I haven't beaten. SQ plays a lot more like CV1 than SoTN does like any of its predecessors though.

Leveling affects both your HP and the amount of damage you take from enemies.
It actually does play a very big role in SQ too. You just don't usually notice it. Play the latest SQ retranslation patch. Get to the end of the game and switch back to the leather whip. The Skeletons near the ruins of Castlevania take like 8 or more hits to kill even at level 6.
The problem with SotN is that the RPG elements weren't handled well, not the elements themselves.

The amount of hits an enemy takes with the Leather Whip is because the Leather Whip is the weakest whip in the game. It has nothing to do with your level as far as I know (enemies get stronger the closer to Dracula's Castle they appear, which as far as I know, has nothing to do with what level you're at.) Leveling up only gives you a longer energy bar, it doesn't affect anything other than that afaik. 

I agree about the way the platforming was nerfed, but I totally disagree about the enemy placement. Enemy placement is the only element that gives you any challenge at all before you level up or find abilities. Before that their placement is actually pretty well thought out for the most part. Before you level up or get way better equipment the enemies are anything but busy work. Certainly they are far more interesting than a crank wheel at least for a time. In the classic games (except SQ) the platforming and the enemy placement are parts of a whole. Take away either one and you have a problem. It's the opposite in SQ. The enemy placement is atrocious and only the platforming is a challenge and not in a good way because the level design is pretty bad too. The problem with SotN isn't enemy placement, it's the fact that the player is free to level grind to the point that they become moot.

In SoTN, regardless of what level you're at, there are only a couple spots (mainly the Clock Tower) where enemy placement makes platforming more difficult. You're never in danger of being knocked into a pit and there really aren't many situations where you're put in a bad situation because of platforming and enemy placement as a combination. Even Simon's Quest has parts where enemy placement makes platforming difficult (granted not many, but more than SoTN) and even with all the weapons, Simon isn't nearly as overpowered as Alucard is, especially compared to the enemies.

I really think SoTN is the most fun when played in Luck Mode. The last several times I've played it, I've done that, and purposely gone for lower stats when fighting the first battle. It makes the game challenging for a longer stretch and a lot more fun and interesting imo. 

That wasn't my main point anyway. And, by your own logic, you've nullified your problem with SotN not having a Belmont as the main character because a Belmont wasn't the focus of the game. Hell, SotN is practically a gaiden. And when I say practically I mean that for all intents and purposes it is a side story to RoB. When I started considering it as such I accepted it a lot more easily. Believe me when I first read that you weren't playing as a Belmont my gut reaction was WTF!?

I guess. My point was that up until then, EVERY main character (even if there were side characters) WAS a Belmont. SoTN was quite a departure in that sense. You can't really argue that. But it was a cool departure. It's things like that that make the series more interesting. As much as I prefer playing as Belmonts, Alucard was a lot of fun, as were Johnathan and Charlotte, and even Soma had his moments. I think trying to pin down one specific thing as "Castlevania" in a series that has been so varied over the years is an exercise in futility. People may not like what LoS brings to the table, but it's adding a few more arrows to CV's quiver. 

[Lelygax]

The amount of hits an enemy takes with the Leather Whip is because the Leather Whip is the weakest whip in the game. It has nothing to do with your level as far as I know (enemies get stronger the closer to Dracula's Castle they appear, which as far as I know, has nothing to do with what level you're at.) Leveling up only gives you a longer energy bar, it doesn't affect anything other than that afaik.

He said that because you mentioned equips in SOTN, he gave a totally valid example that SOTN equips system isn't broken, its only done wrong. (we have broken items, but its another story)

In SoTN, regardless of what level you're at, there are only a couple spots (mainly the Clock Tower) where enemy placement makes platforming more difficult. You're never in danger of being knocked into a pit and there really aren't many situations where you're put in a bad situation because of platforming and enemy placement as a combination. Even Simon's Quest has parts where enemy placement makes platforming difficult (granted not many, but more than SoTN) and even with all the weapons, Simon isn't nearly as overpowered as Alucard is, especially compared to the enemies.

I really think SoTN is the most fun when played in Luck Mode. The last several times I've played it, I've done that, and purposely gone for lower stats when fighting the first battle. It makes the game challenging for a longer stretch and a lot more fun and interesting imo.

I think thats why he said that enemy placement isnt the problem, almost inexistent platforming was. If platforming is inexistent, enemy placement wont make it more difficult since it doesnt exist. The only place that is near from that and IS challenging for a begginer is the falling bridge without Bat Form. But talking about enemy placement as a stand-alone thing, yes, it was challenging for me at the beggining, I died a lot of times when I was younger.

I guess. My point was that up until then, EVERY main character (even if there were side characters) WAS a Belmont. SoTN was quite a departure in that sense. You can't really argue that.

OBJECTION!

"Akumajō Special: Boku Dracula-kun" is a gaiden Castlevania game, even if they didnt localized it to US as one, the original sources doesnt lie, look at the title




P.S.: Doesnt take it personally, when I see a interesting debate I instantly jump on it, so take it easy

[Inccubus]

Bloodlines came out before SotN and doesn't have any Belmonts, just sayin'.

[DoctaMario]

He said that because you mentioned equips in SOTN, he gave a totally valid example that SOTN equips system isn't broken, its only done wrong. (we have broken items, but its another story)

I think thats why he said that enemy placement isnt the problem, almost inexistent platforming was. If platforming is inexistent, enemy placement wont make it more difficult since it doesnt exist. The only place that is near from that and IS challenging for a begginer is the falling bridge without Bat Form. But talking about enemy placement as a stand-alone thing, yes, it was challenging for me at the beggining, I died a lot of times when I was younger.

OBJECTION!

"Akumajō Special: Boku Dracula-kun" is a gaiden Castlevania game, even if they didnt localized it to US as one, the original sources doesnt lie, look at the title


P.S.: Doesnt take it personally, when I see a interesting debate I instantly jump on it, so take it easy

I never said the equip system in SoTN was broken. Just that it played a BIG part in the game, something which, outside of Simon's Quest (and it really wasn't the same as it was in SQ) the series hadn't seen before.

Also, the enemy placement and platforming rarely work in tandem in SoTN. There are dangerous enemies, there really aren't any difficult platforming sections (again, except the Clock Tower), and except for the CLock Tower, there aren't any spots where the enemies make it harder to progress with said platforming.

Honestly, I didn't even know Kid Dracula was supposedly a Castlevania game until like, two years ago. 

Bloodlines came out before SotN and doesn't have any Belmonts, just sayin'.

Oy. Whip wielder. Let's just say whip wielder.