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Offline Pfil

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2013, 10:51:28 AM »
+1
I believe Iga topped or at least matched SotN with AoS and OoE (from a more universal PoV) and PoR (from a personal tastes PoV).
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Offline Intersection

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #91 on: September 23, 2013, 10:54:54 AM »
+2
You know what, I wouldn't mind getting to the bottom of this -- once and for all. I've been gathering some useful information, and here are a few links:
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/documents/CV2J.txt
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-jcv2.htm
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv2/manual-jacv2.htm
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-ecv2.htm

And, of course, it's a complete mess. Can anyone here reliably translate Japanese? I'd rather not rely upon one single source. And does anyone know who this "JPCVFAN" is supposed to be?
As for the French version, I can take care of that; and from what I've read it's a word to word translation of the American manual... which doesn't help at all.

Castlevania: The Adventure manuals:
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/manual-gb.htm
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cvgb1/documents/CVAJ.txt
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/2/manual-jgb1.htm
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-egb.htm
The Japanese manual seems to show that Christopher did indeed come before Simon.
The American manual doesn't mention any specific name, however. And if my German isn't very good, I'm pretty sure it's another word-to-word translation of the American manual.

Simon's Quest development credits:
Quote
PROGRAMMED WITH THE FOLLOWING CHARACTERISTIC INVINCIBILITY AKAMATSU PERMANENCE IWASA PHILOSOPHY TOGAKUSHI MASTERPIECE KAWANISHI SENSITIVITY HATANO EXCELLENCE TERASHIMA AMBIVALENCE KUWAHARA FLOURISH HIGASA ADMIRATION OHYAMA WARM-HEART MATSUOKA SUPERIORITY MURATA SYNCHRONISM MATSUBARA CIRCUMSTANCE KONAMI

Dracula's curse credits:
Quote
Programmer:
H. Akamatsu
Y. Okuda
Sound:
Y. Sasaki
J. Funahashi
Y. Morimoto
Planner:
S. Urata
Director:
H. Akamatsu
Special thanks to:
H. Maezawa
M. Takemoto
S. Kitamoto
N. Togakushi
K. Ogawa
Two names appear in both SQ and DC: Akamatsu and Togakushi.

Adventure credits:
http://www.giantbomb.com/castlevania-the-adventure/3030-8654/credits/

So far that's the best I can find...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 11:30:19 AM by Intersection »
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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #92 on: September 23, 2013, 11:12:21 AM »
+1
Can anyone here reliably translate Japanese?
Shiroi  :P
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Offline DoctaMario

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #93 on: September 23, 2013, 11:50:06 AM »
+2
Oh, I see. I think there was a misunderstanding. When you said: "The amount of overanalysis in this thread is astounding. " it came across as mean to me. However, it's difficult to determine the tone of what somebody is saying on the internet. So, never mind my harsh tone. Also, I don't actually downvote people who disagree with me. I only downvote when I think somebody disagrees because of an argument I think is weak. For example, Lelygax disagrees with me too, but I never downvoted him. But I disgress.  :P

OKay good. Glad we got that out of the way. :)

Quote
It's important to note that the mystery woman and Simon's girlfriend from the Worlds of Power novel are not the same character. They just happen to have similar roles. I doubt the author was aware of the Japanese storyline at all.  :P

As for your actual point, it may be weird that such an important element is not mentioned in the game itself, but it's definitely canon. For example, the guidebook of the game mentions Dracula has a sixth body part, and that he is revived through this body part when Simon burns the other five in Dracula's castle. You would think this is something wacky the author of the guidebook came up with, but the PoR timeline I mentioned earlier mentions it too. Therefore, the information is definitely legitimate. It also mentions the mystery woman. So, I don't think there should be doubt about the reliability of the manual story. 

Yeah I figured that they weren't the same person (that WoP book was hilarious for those who haven't read it!)

And which guidebook are you referring to? One for Simon's Quest itself or the PoR one....? Either way, Simon missing the 6th body part would be a good enough reason for the canon ending to be the right one. It's a perfect way for him to not only survive, but for Dracula to also be able to be revived. It's not really mentioned in the game, but it seems more plausible than the woman's words and at least it's referenced in a sequel game (HoD.) The villagers are idiots and don't know what they're talking about, how do we know this woman isn't a dead gossiping villager? :P

I still think our mystery woman's words are rather inconsequential given the other things we know. It just seems like kind of a random way to get Simon active. Who is she, why is the coming to him, is she good, is she evil? We don't know. And there's enough uncertainty surrounding her that I don't think she's a reliable way to argue that the canon ending isn't the right one.       

 

Quote
H. Akamatsu is the director of all three NES games. The director of Castlevania IV confirmed this in an interview recently. He mentions CVIII was made by "the same people who made CVI and II." 

As for my "they never picked up on the cliff hanger ending" argument, we have established earlier in this thread that IGA treats the NES and GB games as canon but sometimes straight up ignores things from them. However, assuming the cliff hanger is the originally intented ending, why do both Rondo and HoD, both direct sequels at the time of their release, completely ignore it? He ignores a lot of things but I can't imagine him ignoring such an important story hook. That's one big reason why I don't believe that ending is canon. 

How do you feel he ignored that plot hook? If anything, Dracula coming back as a wraith rather than in his full form in HoD makes it seem like he just barely made it back after being almost completely destroyed and hadn't reached full power at that point; two things I think really support the canon ending. We know Simon missed a body part, we know Juste is his grandson so he obviously reproduced. And what other things do you think IGA ignored specifically? They each have such a threadbare story that there really doesn't seem like there's enough there to ignore in the first place.

Quote
I'm very confident it's in the Japanese manual as well. However, I only have acces to one translation, which contains some errors. For example, it makes the same translation mistake made by TheouAegis earlier in this thread. That's why I think it's probably in there somewhere, but the translator just skipped over it or something. Also, the PoR timeline only takes information from earlier sources. The mystery woman and Dracula's sixth body piece weren't original invention, so why should this be?   

Again, I think there are too many variables here that could possibly be mistranslated for us to just naturally assume the ending is wrong. It's a leap to assume that the designers were incompetent and either switched the ending texts or had a logic error present. Grammatical/translation errors in a game are one thing, but actually messing up the ending like that is something I just can't believe happened. 

Quote
However, even with this method, there's no guarantee that Dracula will be destroyed forever. (Note: Contributor JPCVFAN says that the line's actual
translation is "Only by this method can Dracula be permanently eliminated.")

Whaaaaat? So the line itself in question could possibly be the opposite. I wish Raven-kun was still around. Besides being a cool guy he was fluent in both Japanese and English and did some translating over at the Chapel. We don't know JPCVFAN's level of English fluency and if there's debate over that line, then we surely can't use that as the crux of the argument.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 12:03:21 PM by DoctaMario »

Offline Lelygax

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #94 on: September 23, 2013, 12:04:39 PM »
+2
Some things that I've said earlier in this thread, that DoctaMario seems to have thought too:
The best ending shows Dracula's hand, showing that he would return someday. They say that Simon could destroy Dracula forever if he burned all parts, but he burned only five.

She never said to Simon resurrect Dracula, she said to him burn all Dracula parts inside his castle. Simon did it wrong leaving a part untouched (like in Evil Dead 3 when the protagonist say the wrong words for the Necronomicon) and then Dracula revives. Thats why I think Dracula isnt gone for good, since Simon didnt used the correct method. Also this woman could be lying like another NPCs about this "annihilated for good" part.


Also, since Im feeling like no one really did read that:
I've given some alternatives already, here is a newer and crazier one: Dracula was really been destroyed, but his spirit still lives. They use his relics in rituals to give a new body for him. In HoD he doesnt have a body, but in RoB Shaft does a ritual and so he acquires a new body.
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Offline Intersection

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2013, 12:05:25 PM »
+3
All right. So now that we've gotten a few facts down (I'll leave it up to you all to put them in order  :P):

Nagumo:
As for your actual point, it may be weird that such an important element is not mentioned in the game itself, but it's definitely canon. For example, the guidebook of the game mentions Dracula has a sixth body part, and that he is revived through this body part when Simon burns the other five in Dracula's castle. You would think this is something wacky the author of the guidebook came up with, but the PoR timeline I mentioned earlier mentions it too. Therefore, the information is definitely legitimate. It also mentions the mystery woman. So, I don't think there should be doubt about the reliability of the manual story.
Where does it say that Dracula has a sixth body part from which he revives? I couldn't find that in any of the game manuals.

Incidentally, the fact that IGA's timeline mentions it doesn't tell us anything. Remember, we're dealing with the devs' original intentions.

And why would this "mystery woman" be so important? She appears in both introductions as a benevolent fairy, there to bestow her wisdom upon a tired Simon... From the way she's presented, I'm pretty sure we're expected to take her for her word.
But why would it matter if she was mentioned or not? If anything, it would have helped your argument, since it would have meant that the manual took an even more direct approach to the story.

As for my "they never picked up on the cliff hanger ending" argument, we have established earlier in this thread that IGA treats the NES and GB games as canon but sometimes straight up ignores things from them. However, assuming the cliff hanger is the originally intented ending, why do both Rondo and HoD, both direct sequels at the time of their release, completely ignore it? He ignores a lot of things but I can't imagine him ignoring such an important story hook. That's one big reason why I don't believe that ending is canon.
I don't think that's a very strong point. Rondo and HoD both came much later, and under different development teams. And as much as I believe in IGA's good will, I don't think it'll tell us much about what the SQ team had intended at first...


Oh, and one last thing. Did you notice the color of the background in the three different SQ endings? You'd expect them to follow a logical pattern: the best ending would correspond to the most joyful colors (daytime), the good ending to the slightly more foreboding dusk, and the worst ending to the dark night. Yet that's not how they were arranged: the best ending is allotted with a dark orange, dusk-like background while the good ending receives bright midday colors. Doesn't quite make sense when you think about it...

EDIT: Ooh, there were new posts while I was writing.

And which guidebook are you referring to? One for Simon's Quest itself or the PoR one....? Either way, Simon missing the 6th body part would be a good enough reason for the canon ending to be the right one. It's a perfect way for him to not only survive, but for Dracula to also be able to be revived. It's not really mentioned in the game, but it seems more plausible than the woman's words and at least it's referenced in a sequel game (HoD.) The villagers are idiots and don't know what they're talking about, how do we know this woman isn't a dead gossiping villager? :P

I still think our mystery woman's words are rather inconsequential given the other things we know. It just seems like kind of a random way to get Simon active. Who is she, why is the coming to him, is she good, is she evil? We don't know. And there's enough uncertainty surrounding her that I don't think she's a reliable way to argue that the canon ending isn't the right one.
The "mysterious woman" was introduced with a strongly positive image: "beautiful woman"; "soft voice", "beautiful vision". Here words are reassuring, strengthening... they seem hardly evil. Of course, we don't know much about her, and she could be as evil as anything else. But judging from how the short narrative presents her and from what the backstory was intended to achieve, I still think she's meant to be taken for her word. In context, she seems more like an archetype of the 'all-knowing goddess' than a "dead, gossiping villager", as much as I like the idea.  ;D

Whaaaaat? So the line itself in question could possibly be the opposite. I wish Raven-kun was still around. Besides being a cool guy he was fluent in both Japanese and English and did some translating over at the Chapel. We don't know JPCVFAN's level of English fluency and if there's debate over that line, then we surely can't use that as the crux of the argument.
Yep. Which is why I am completely, utterly confused at this point.


Lelygax:
I did read what you'd posted earlier, and I think I'd mentioned that I thought it was a pretty solid argument.
And I like the "crazier" one...

But there's still that nagging feeling of uncertainty you would feel when you play through the "best" ending. Even when I'd achieved it for the first time, and took the grave scene for granted, it felt strangely out of place.
And among other things, the best ending seems, well, worse than "good" ending. Not very intuitive, is it? That was more or less why I had found myself so interested in Nagumo's topic...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 12:27:15 PM by Intersection »
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Offline Nagumo

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #96 on: September 23, 2013, 12:33:45 PM »
+1
And which guidebook are you referring to? One for Simon's Quest itself or the PoR one....? Either way, Simon missing the 6th body part would be a good enough reason for the canon ending to be the right one. It's a perfect way for him to not only survive, but for Dracula to also be able to be revived. It's not really mentioned in the game, but it seems more plausible than the woman's words and at least it's referenced in a sequel game (HoD.)

All right. So now that we've gotten a few facts down (I'll leave it up to you all to put them in order  :P):

Nagumo:Where does it say that Dracula has a sixth body part from which he revives? I couldn't find that in any of the game manuals.

Incidentally, the fact that IGA's timeline mentions it doesn't tell us anything. Remember, we're dealing with the devs' original intentions.

The guidebook I'm talking about is "Dracula II: Noroi no Fūin Kanzen Hisshōbon". The offical Japanese guidebook released for the game in 1987. Since it's such an old guidebook, and the PoR timeline references it, I think that's proof enough the guidebook reflect the developer's original intentions.

Either way, Simon missing the 6th body part would be a good enough reason for the canon ending to be the right one. It's a perfect way for him to not only survive, but for Dracula to also be able to be revived. It's not really mentioned in the game, but it seems more plausible than the woman's words and at least it's referenced in a sequel game (HoD.)

The mystery woman says that if Simon burns Dracula's body parts, he would be destroyed permanently and
he would recover from the curse. From the way it's phrased, it seems the two things aren't mutually exclusive. If one thing happens, then the other thing also happens. So, personally, I don't believe in that theory. It would make for a good retcon in the IGA canon, though.

The villagers are idiots and don't know what they're talking about, how do we know this woman isn't a dead gossiping villager? :P

I still think our mystery woman's words are rather inconsequential given the other things we know. It just seems like kind of a random way to get Simon active. Who is she, why is the coming to him, is she good, is she evil? We don't know. And there's enough uncertainty surrounding her that I don't think she's a reliable way to argue that the canon ending isn't the right one.       

I mentioned before that I think a general rule of thumb in fiction is that you're supposed to take any information given at face value, unless you're given reason to doubt it's reliability. I should also point out the villagers aren't really lying. The nonsense they say is a result of bad translation.

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/diff
 

How do you feel he ignored that plot hook? If anything, Dracula coming back as a wraith rather than in his full form in HoD makes it seem like he just barely made it back after being almost completely destroyed and hadn't reached full power at that point; two things I think really support the canon ending. We know Simon missed a body part, we know Juste is his grandson so he obviously reproduced. And what other things do you think IGA ignored specifically? They each have such a threadbare story that there really doesn't seem like there's enough there to ignore in the first place.

Actually, I'm completely sure HoD doesn't follow up on CVII's ending. The "Dracula" in the game is actually an evil spirit who isn't the true Dracula. He's called "Dracula Wraith" in the game. This evil spirit was born out of Maxim's jealousy for Juste. Proof is the dialogue and this timeline (it refers to Dracula Wraith as "Fake Dracula"):

http://castlevania.armster.org/translations.php?timeline 
 
Whaaaaat? So the line itself in question could possibly be the opposite. I wish Raven-kun was still around. Besides being a cool guy he was fluent in both Japanese and English and did some translating over at the Chapel. We don't know JPCVFAN's level of English fluency and if there's debate over that line, then we surely can't use that as the crux of the argument.

No. It's definitely "Only by this method will Dracula be destroyed forever". Koutei, who is Japan, confirmed it earlier in this thread. He and JPCVFAN know each other and used to run a CV website together. What he says can be trusted.         

I've given some alternatives already, here is a newer and crazier one: Dracula was really been destroyed, but his spirit still lives. They use his relics in rituals to give a new body for him. In HoD he doesnt have a body, but in RoB Shaft does a ritual and so he acquires a new body.


I should point out the Dracula from CVII also appears as a spirit. So, I don't think that theory works.

http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/diinfs.html
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 12:38:55 PM by Nagumo »

Offline Intersection

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #97 on: September 23, 2013, 01:04:49 PM »
+1
The guidebook I'm talking about is "Dracula II: Noroi no Fūin Kanzen Hisshōbon". The offical Japanese guidebook released for the game in 1987. Since it's such an old guidebook, and the PoR timeline references it, I think that's proof enough the guidebook reflect the developer's original intentions.
Oh dear, another guidebook. Could someone find a link for it? I'm pretty tired at this point... But yes, it's 1987, official, probably backed by the original team, so it's a good reference.

I mentioned before that I think a general rule of thumb in fiction is that you're supposed to take any information given at face value, unless you're given reason to doubt it's reliability. I should also point out the villagers aren't really lying. The nonsense they say is a result of bad translation.

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/diff
Agreed. That age of narrative experimentation hadn't quite arrived yet -- not for video games. Especially when they're presented in the way SQ does, you take take what you're told at face value.
But I've seen that you too have stumbled upon the the "biscuit" website... Hmm, it makes me hungry.

Actually, I'm completely sure HoD doesn't follow up on CVII's ending. The "Dracula" in the game is actually an evil spirit who isn't the true Dracula. He's called "Dracula Wraith" in the game. This evil spirit was born out of Maxim's jealousy for Juste. Proof is the dialogue and this timeline (it refers to Dracula Wraith as "Fake Dracula").
Yes, I remember. But the Dracula Wraith was born from Dracula's genuine remains...

No. It's definitely "Only by this method will Dracula be destroyed forever". Koutei, who is Japan, confirmed it earlier in this thread. He and JPCVFAN know each other and used to run a CV website together. What he says can be trusted.
Did he? Good, then; it seems that the translation is indeed trustworthy.

But still... Just in case:
Shiroi? Where are you? We might just need your help!
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Offline Lelygax

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #98 on: September 23, 2013, 02:08:24 PM »
+1
I should point out the Dracula from CVII also appears as a spirit. So, I don't think that theory works.

http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/diinfs.html

You know that what you just said also acts as a reinforcement to what I said right? Since it would be strange if Dracula possessed his own nail, imagine you fighting a giant nail. xD

What I mean is that Dracula's body was destroyed when Simon burned these parts, but since this Nail remained it could regenerate his another relics. Another theory is that his relics are a personification of evil in people's hearts, so they ever returns in a dormant state.

Quote from:  bisqwit site
ending 3
AND THE BATTLE
ENDED. NOW THE
PEACE AND CALM
HAVE ARRIVED
BACK AT TRANS-
YLVANIA JUST
LIVE BEFORE.
THE NAME OF
THE HERO WILL
BE ETCHED UPON
OUR MIND DEEP-
LY. HIS NAME
IS SIMMON BEL-
MONT,THAT IS
THE NAME OF
YOURSELF.
   TOAST TO
YOUR 24DAYS'
   BATTLE

Beat game at day 15-99. String numbers: Japanese=32-47; 48-81, English=32-47
Explanation: The word, "live", is an authentic typo in the Japanese version.
The Japanese version contains an easter egg: If the game was beat exactly on day 69 (not before, not later), an extra line is displayed after the text: SEE YOU AGAIN. The English version still contains this check, but it does not work, because the text is shorter and thus never reaches line number 80.

Well, this "See you again" shows that it wouldnt be the last game. This is open for interpretation if the next game would be a sequel or prequel, but certainly another game would be made.



Oh dear, another guidebook. Could someone find a link for it? I'm pretty tired at this point... But yes, it's 1987, official, probably backed by the original team, so it's a good reference.

Nagumo already did it in his last post. http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/diinfs.html

edit:
Actually, I'm completely sure HoD doesn't follow up on CVII's ending. The "Dracula" in the game is actually an evil spirit who isn't the true Dracula. He's called "Dracula Wraith" in the game. This evil spirit was born out of Maxim's jealousy for Juste. Proof is the dialogue and this timeline (it refers to Dracula Wraith as "Fake Dracula"):

http://castlevania.armster.org/translations.php?timeline

From your link:

1748
On the day when 50 years have passed since Simon's battle, a mysterious castle appears. Is it Dracula's castle? In order to rescue his childhood friend Lydie who was kidnapped, Juste Belmont and his close friend, Maxim Kishine, enter the castle. At the end of a heroic battle, the false Dracula's castle disappears.
Game - GBA "Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance"

Its a false Dracula's castle, not a false Dracula. Some people tend to say that its a fake Dracula while it truly isnt. A wraith is like a ghost, its Dracula's ghost.

I've used Ctrl+F to find "wraith" and "fake" in this webpage without sucess.

Wraith
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wraith is a Scottish dialectal word for "ghost," "spirit", see Ghosts in European culture.


While I've played this game a lot of time, I never saw something that shows that he isnt truly Dracula. Surely while he is "inside" Maxim he acts a little different, but starts to act more like Dracula near the end and truly like him when he regains a partial form.


From VGMuseum (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-hod/documents/dialogue.txt):

(If you have collected all six relics and beat Maxim while wearing JB's Bracelet and Maxim's Bracelet)


Maxim     : Aargh. Tha-that...that bracelet...you wore it for me...

Juste     : ?! Maxim? Is that you?

Evil Maxim: Wh-why do you still live within me?! I thought you were dead!!!

Juste     : Remember, Maxim!!! You're stronger than this!!!

Maxim     : You-you're right..but compared to the training we had...this is nothing.

Evil Maxim: Why?! Why can I not free myself of you?!!!

Maxim     : Because I choose not to free you. Juste! Finish me off!!

Evil Maxim: Aaargh...I sense a strong magic at work...

Juste     : The-the remains...

<Dracula's relics which Juste had collected float into the air>

Evil Maxim: As long as I have this power, I have no need for this body! Here, have it!

Maxim     : Aaaah!

<Maxim falls unconscious> <Dracula Wraith materializes>

Dracula   : Hmph...I'm not stable, but your blood will once again make me whole.

Juste     : Take it if you can...do not underestimate the power of Belmont...

Dracula   : Ok, let us begin? I will enjoy destroying you.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 02:33:13 PM by Lelygax »
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Offline Inccubus

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #99 on: September 23, 2013, 04:46:32 PM »
+1
I'd like to add to this the re-translation of the manual story that was added to a new custom intro for the CV2 re-translation patch by Bisqwit.

This is the transcript of the new intro:

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/dev/cv2retrans-prologue-2.9.8.txt
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:16:29 PM by Inccubus »
"Stuff and things."

Offline C Belmont

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2013, 05:19:45 PM »
0
Quote
Oh, and one last thing. Did you notice the color of the background in the three different SQ endings? You'd expect them to follow a logical pattern: the best ending would correspond to the most joyful colors (daytime), the good ending to the slightly more foreboding dusk, and the worst ending to the dark night. Yet that's not how they were arranged: the best ending is allotted with a dark orange, dusk-like background while the good ending receives bright midday colors. Doesn't quite make sense when you think about it...

For what it’s worth I think the colour in the endings makes perfect sense.
The Normal ending – B & W photo
Good ending – Day
Best Ending – Sundown
Hand sequence – Night

The best ending has a reddish orange colour which corresponds with sundown. Sundown is often used in film to symbolise the end of an adventure & at the same time the promise of a new one (Think of that old western cliché where the hero rides off into the sunset)

Quote
No. It's definitely "Only by this method will Dracula be destroyed forever". Koutei, who is Japan, confirmed it earlier in this thread. He and JPCVFAN know each other and used to run a CV website together. What he says can be trusted

Koutei also said that no one on his team has very strong English, so I'm not convinced that we should rely on his translation alone. A detailed explanation of his translation would be useful for those of us who don't understand Japanese & find it difficult to see how you can go from one thing to the polar opposite in a translation.

Offline Shiroi Koumori

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #101 on: September 24, 2013, 04:56:02 AM »
0
But still... Just in case:
Shiroi? Where are you? We might just need your help!

Hi dearies~♥
I'm still alive, although, I am not in the mood for translations as of this moment.  :-\
If you guys really insist, please keep all things I need to translate in one place, and maybe I'll take a look at it, if and when I am free.

Offline Nagumo

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #102 on: September 24, 2013, 05:21:30 AM »
0

Nagumo already did it in his last post. http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/diinfs.html

edit:
From your link:

1748
On the day when 50 years have passed since Simon's battle, a mysterious castle appears. Is it Dracula's castle? In order to rescue his childhood friend Lydie who was kidnapped, Juste Belmont and his close friend, Maxim Kishine, enter the castle. At the end of a heroic battle, the false Dracula's castle disappears.
Game - GBA "Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance"

Its a false Dracula's castle, not a false Dracula. Some people tend to say that its a fake Dracula while it truly isnt. A wraith is like a ghost, its Dracula's ghost.
What you're suggesting is grammatically impossible in English. If what you're suggesting would have been true it would have said: "Dracula's false castle". For example, you say "Dracula's large castle", not "Large Dracula's castle".  :P     


While I've played this game a lot of time, I never saw something that shows that he isnt truly Dracula. Surely while he is "inside" Maxim he acts a little different, but starts to act more like Dracula near the end and truly like him when he regains a partial form.

I don't think that's correct. It's explained very well here: http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/hod/index.html   

I'd like to add to this the re-translation of the manual story that was added to a new custom intro for the CV2 re-translation patch by Bisqwit.

This is the transcript of the new intro:

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/dev/cv2retrans-prologue-2.9.8.txt

Thank you very much, Inccubus! This clarifies a lot of things. As you can you see, the correct translation is "Dracula will be destroyed forever". So, I think we can put that discussion to rest. It also supports what I said about Dracula slowly resurrecting as the curse grows stronger. Meaning, if the curse completely consumes Simon, Dracula will come back to life. 

Offline Intersection

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #103 on: September 24, 2013, 08:27:47 AM »
0
Well, this "See you again" shows that it wouldnt be the last game. This is open for interpretation if the next game would be a sequel or prequel, but certainly another game would be made.
I don't think so. Rembember, it's the worst ending we're talking about, and it only appears when your playtime is ridiculously long... I strongly doubt it was intended as a "teaser" for a next game.
If anything, it would have meant: "see you again" in a different playthrough of the game, where you'll probably try, well, not to take as long.

:
From your link:

1748
On the day when 50 years have passed since Simon's battle, a mysterious castle appears. Is it Dracula's castle? In order to rescue his childhood friend Lydie who was kidnapped, Juste Belmont and his close friend, Maxim Kishine, enter the castle. At the end of a heroic battle, the false Dracula's castle disappears.
Game - GBA "Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance"

Its a false Dracula's castle, not a false Dracula. Some people tend to say that its a fake Dracula while it truly isnt. A wraith is like a ghost, its Dracula's ghost.

I've used Ctrl+F to find "wraith" and "fake" in this webpage without sucess.

Wraith
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wraith is a Scottish dialectal word for "ghost," "spirit", see Ghosts in European culture.

While I've played this game a lot of time, I never saw something that shows that he isnt truly Dracula. Surely while he is "inside" Maxim he acts a little different, but starts to act more like Dracula near the end and truly like him when he regains a partial form.


From VGMuseum (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-hod/documents/dialogue.txt):

(If you have collected all six relics and beat Maxim while wearing JB's Bracelet and Maxim's Bracelet)


Maxim     : Aargh. Tha-that...that bracelet...you wore it for me...
Juste     : ?! Maxim? Is that you?
Evil Maxim: Wh-why do you still live within me?! I thought you were dead!!!
Juste     : Remember, Maxim!!! You're stronger than this!!!
Maxim     : You-you're right..but compared to the training we had...this is nothing.
Evil Maxim: Why?! Why can I not free myself of you?!!!
Maxim     : Because I choose not to free you. Juste! Finish me off!!
Evil Maxim: Aaargh...I sense a strong magic at work...
Juste     : The-the remains...
<Dracula's relics which Juste had collected float into the air>
Evil Maxim: As long as I have this power, I have no need for this body! Here, have it!
Maxim     : Aaaah!
<Maxim falls unconscious> <Dracula Wraith materializes>
Dracula   : Hmph...I'm not stable, but your blood will once again make me whole.
Juste     : Take it if you can...do not underestimate the power of Belmont...
Dracula   : Ok, let us begin. I will enjoy destroying you.
No, I'm certain that HoD's "Dracula wraith" wasn't Dracula's genuine spirit.
First of all, if you didn't already know, the final boss that appears in the best ending is called "Dracula Wraith". You can see its name both in the dialogue at the end of the game (it's not "Dracula", but "Dracula wraith" that shows), and when you attack it in the final battle ("Dracula wraith" shows in the lower right-hand corner). They wouldn't have bothered to distinguish the names if Juste was truly fighting Dracula.

Now, you've given me the first part of the ending dialogue, but not the rest. Here's what happens after the battle:

Dracula Wraith: Argggh!!
Juste: I told you so. Do not underestimate the power of my bloodline!!
Dracula Wraith: So- so this is the power of Belmont...
Juste: Vile spawn of Maxim, you are not worthy of being my opponent.
Dracula Wraith: I will now fade from this world... But I find pleasure in this...
Dracula Wraith: With the cursed powers of yours, destiny calls you to hunt for all eternity.

The Dracula Wraith has never met a Belmont before, and discovers the bloodline's power in that very battle... It obviously isn't Dracula's true spirit.
Note that Juste calls it a "vile spawn of Maxim", and that's exactly right: the spirit that used Dracula's remains to take on a physical form is only an evil contamination of Maxim's own soul -- one he created himself when he set out to resurrect Dracula on his own, driven by jealousy and even hate. It has nothing to do with Dracula's own soul.

For what it’s worth I think the colour in the endings makes perfect sense.
The Normal ending – B & W photo
Good ending – Day
Best Ending – Sundown
Hand sequence – Night

The best ending has a reddish orange colour which corresponds with sundown. Sundown is often used in film to symbolise the end of an adventure & at the same time the promise of a new one (Think of that old western cliché where the hero rides off into the sunset)
I don't think that's the case here. Note that the bright blue colors of daytime seem far more joyful, and far more indicative of a "best" ending than the darker, orange tinge of dusk. Now, I don't believe the worst ending is there as a "black and white photo". Remember, the endings depend on how long you take to complete the game. So here's how they should have been ordered:
The worst ending: Night
The good ending: Dusk
The best ending: Daytime
See? Doesn't that make more sense? And yet that's not how it's done in the game...

I'd like to add to this the re-translation of the manual story that was added to a new custom intro for the CV2 re-translation patch by Bisqwit.

This is the transcript of the new intro:

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/dev/cv2retrans-prologue-2.9.8.txt
Thanks! We've finally found an alternative source.
And this one does seem to validate Nagumo's idea...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 09:00:00 AM by Intersection »
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Offline DoctaMario

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Re: What if they made CV1, 2, and 3 a seperate continuity?
« Reply #104 on: September 24, 2013, 09:03:36 AM »
0
I mentioned before that I think a general rule of thumb in fiction is that you're supposed to take any information given at face value, unless you're given reason to doubt it's reliability. I should also point out the villagers aren't really lying. The nonsense they say is a result of bad translation.

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/diff

Not true actually. If you read the link further, they detail not only the things that got lost in translation, but aspects of the game that WERE flat out lies (the bit about the boatman loving garlic for example, but there are several others.)

Quote
Actually, I'm completely sure HoD doesn't follow up on CVII's ending. The "Dracula" in the game is actually an evil spirit who isn't the true Dracula. He's called "Dracula Wraith" in the game. This evil spirit was born out of Maxim's jealousy for Juste. Proof is the dialogue and this timeline (it refers to Dracula Wraith as "Fake Dracula"):

http://castlevania.armster.org/translations.php?timeline 


It's still Dracula's essence. Maxim's jealousy+Dracula's Essence=Dracula Wraith. So it's him but it's not him. I don't know if that counts. But with that said, none of the canon had been established, so it was more like, "Dracula comes back in his full form, or not at all" at that point.

 
Quote
No. It's definitely "Only by this method will Dracula be destroyed forever". Koutei, who is Japan, confirmed it earlier in this thread. He and JPCVFAN know each other and used to run a CV website together. What he says can be trusted. 

I think much like the importance of the mystery woman, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Especially in light of what C Belmont said about Koutei saying no one was really a strong English speaker. I'd be more inclined to believe something Shiroi translated as her English is strong. But either way, we'll agree to disagree on this one. :)       
 

Quote
I should point out the Dracula from CVII also appears as a spirit. So, I don't think that theory works.

http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/diinfs.html

If anything that link supports the theory that Simon missed the fang and therefore Dracula was able to come back because one of his body parts wasn't burned. Simon beats Drac and breaks the curse, but Drac is still able to return via that technicality.

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