Topic: Castlevania - The Plot Hole Thread

[Lumas]

None of them are.  They are simply known as the strongest vampire hunters.  While being some kind of hunter requires skill and knowledge, that doesn't mean that they are intelligent enough to put two and two together.

I disagree since Juste obviously had a way with magic he must have possessed intelligence that was higher for Belmonts.

[darkwzrd4]

I disagree since Juste obviously had a way with magic he must have possessed intelligence that was higher for Belmonts.

What I meant was that they know how to utilize their powers in various ways, but they may not be able to comprehend how some stuff fits together.

[Reinhart77]

i also like the theory of her being Alucard and Maria's daughter.  it certainly fits the timeline well.  what if she was Alucard's daughter and Soma's ancestor?  that would make Alucard both Soma's son and ancestor 

[darkwzrd4]

i also like the theory of her being Alucard and Maria's daughter.  it certainly fits the timeline well.  what if she was Alucard's daughter and Soma's ancestor?  that would make Alucard both Soma's son and ancestor 

I seriously doubt that Shanoa is related to Alucard or Soma.  She is probably just someone who has a natural ability to host glyphs.  As for why Dominus didn't corrupt her, Albus theorizes in the game that the fact that Shanoa absorbed the glyphs imprisoning the villagers, she also absorbed some of their power.  And don't forget, they were suppose to be descendants of the Belmonts.

[Inccubus]

I'd like to establish some points.

1) Judgement is not canon; as stated by Iga himself. Thus, nothing in it including the characters that were used can be presented as evidence that any of the games he officially removed from the time line are canon based on the presence of their characters.

2) Bram Stoker's Dracula is not canon to the Castlevania universe. The only part of the book that are used in Castlevania are the characters and basic plot. Therefore that back story does not need to be retconned since what little we know of the CV universe version of events does not conflict at all.

3) To my own dismay, I find the removal of Legends valid to the preservation of continuity because it directly contradicts the statement in CV3 that Trevor/Ralph was the first Belmont to fight "Dracula". LoI does not contradict this because Mathias hasn't yet become "Dracula" at the end of it. (Hell, I don't think he's even a vampire yet.) The game specifically states that Mathias doesn't become "Dracula" until much later and then eventually he meets a member of the Belmont Clan for the first time with his new identity. Would be nice if they remade Legends without Dracula involved. There are several hundred years of free space that can be filled with the Belmonts fighting other big-nasties. Likewise, the removal of CV64, LoD & CotM makes sense for the purpose of preserving the continuity because they simply created too many tangent characters that have little back story or are unnecessary to the over all plot of the CV universe.

4) OoE is a big slopping bucket of implied crap that doesn't really tell us anything relevant that wasn't already stated or implied in previous games and interviews. I hate the way the game implies all these facts, but does absolutely nothing to explain how things got to be the way they are. Annoying. >=P For example, if all the villagers are descended from Belmonts then there are either no direct descendants or they cannot or will not participate in anything "Dracula" related. Why the hell not explain it outright? What purpose does it serve to keep the point mute?

This leads me to my plot hole of choice. What the HELL is going on with the Belmonts in the 1800's?

[Nagumo]

3) To my own dismay, I find the removal of Legends valid to the preservation of continuity because it directly contradicts the statement in CV3 that Trevor/Ralph was the first Belmont to fight "Dracula".

nu-uh

Trevor was the first one to defeat (read: kill) Dracula and not the first one to fight him. Which opens up a lot of possibilities for Legends to be included anyway. Saying that the game is non-canon because of that is poppyock. I would also like to make clear that the game doesn't condradict with CV3 (or any other Castlevania media) at all.               

Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.   
 

I'd like to establish some points.

1) Judgement is not canon; as stated by Iga himself. Thus, nothing in it including the characters that were used can be presented as evidence that any of the games he officially removed from the time line are canon based on the presence of their characters.

Oh please, don't get me started on that. People should actually pay attention to what the guy is saying instead of putting words in his mouth. Jesus Christ.       

[Inccubus]

Trevor was the first one to defeat (read: kill) Dracula and not the first one to fight him. Which opens up a lot of possibilities for Legends to be included anyway. Saying that the game is non-canon because of that is poppyock. I would also like to make clear that the game doesn't condradict with CV3 (or any other Castlevania media) at all.               

Where exactly does it say that Sonia didn't defeat/kill Dracula?

Oh please, don't get me started on that. People should actually pay attention to what the guy is saying instead of putting words in his mouth. Jesus Christ.

So then? What were his exact words?

[Nagumo]

Where exactly does it say that Sonia didn't defeat/kill Dracula?

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-chron/manual/dengeki-scoop2.jpg

Around the time of Castlevania Chronicles was released some magazine called Dengeki Playstation had an interview with IGA and they also included a timeline approved by him with the article. And you obviously noticed that Legends was included in the timeline once but the given date was something during the 15th century rather then 1450. The 100 rule was already established at that point as you can see. If Dracula would have been killed anytime before Trevor did, the 100 year cycle would we screwed up. When taking this timeline into account, I can only draw two conclusions:

1) IGA thinks we're all idiots who would never notice such a huge gaping plot hole as that.

2) IGA retconned that Dracula didn't die at the end. Which would be perfectly legitimate to do since the Dracula is still alive DUN DUN DUNNN ending has been done before.

Of course, I know that this is an old timeline, though I consider your point moot since even IGA ignored it at some point and maybe will again in the future.                               

So then? What were his exact words?

Post I made at the Chapel (particurally stolen from GrantDaMummy)

I'm pretty sure I've read every single Judgment related interview, and none of them specifically mention "canon" as far as I know.There is enough "hearsay" going on, and people thinking they remember IGA saying something without actually posting any evidence that they aren't misrembering things, using misleading paraphrases or putting words into his IGA's mouth.

I know some people try to twist his quote from gamespy to mean the story doesn't mean anything;

GameSpy: People have been wondering how characters from different Castlevania time periods can appear in the same game. Is this explained in the story mode?
IGA: Yes, the story of why all these characters from different time periods come together is explained, but the story is not the main focus for Judgment. The main focus of this game is a celebration of the franchise's 22-year history, so I wanted to bring these characters together like a festival.

Alright here is the paragraph in the August 2008 issue of Nintendo power. It states (noting that article is discussing an incomplete version of the game before IGA had finalized all the details);

As for how all these characters from thorughout hte ages wound up fighting each other, Iga remains quiet about the story details, but urges players not to worry about it. "When making this concept we wanted to develop a game that was very lively and had lots of things going on at once, almost like a festival," he states. "To create such a game we decided to ignore the time line of the [series], which is normally very difficult in most cases. However, the end result will allow players to see very interesting matches in the game, since many of the characters have been pulled from different Castlevania titles."

Knowing the fact that IGA has admitted that he comes up with gameplay before he decides on a story, this would seem to imply that in the early version that lacked any storyline, he hadn't thought up the time travel plot yet.

Later interviews such as the one I posted above, he discusses how the storyline they finally figured up, allowed the game to fit, and gave an explanation for how it could fit. This may be one of those cases where IGA changed his mind after the fact, in this case while still developing the game. Its really pretty difficult to take anything seriously that was quoted during alpha/beta version of the game over stuff later said when the game went gold, when his comments contradict each other.

A later nintendo power issue, the special holiday 2008 issue (that's December 2008/Januarary 2009 bonus I think) states in its review of the finalized release version;

Longtime vampire hunters should especially appreciate the interactions between characters and the attention to continuity in Story Mode.   

It was noticed by many reviewers, and even commented upon in a few interviews that contrary to IGA's previous statement he went out of his way to make the story plausible, and to give it an explanation. It wasn't just a storyless arcade game. For a game that IGA had originally believed ignored the timeline, he went out of his way to explain how it fits into the timeline with the final release.

So yeah, I think I can disagree with you on this. Judgment will remain canon unless there will be confirmation from IGA that it isn't  And if you don't agree with me then that's too bad.   

I would also like to point out that "ignoring the timeline" is not a synonym for non-canon in this case. If people actually paid attention to the damn story they would notice that the game's events take place in a rift in time which even is refered to as an alternate universe. Oh, and just because it takes place in an alternate universe doesn't mean that the game isn't canon. Because of the time rift thing the game could never be given a proper place in IGA's timeline but it still happend. It's canon. End of story.                     

[darkwzrd4]

but that was before LoI came out.  From my understanding, when considering the events of LoI, Dracula didn't care about whether humans lived or died until Lisa was killed which I believe happened in 1470.  To my best understanding, that event was why he wanted to exterminate humans.  He would have no reason to get rid of the Belmonts.  Also, the end of LoI says that Mathias/Dracula spent the next few centuries hiding in foreign lands.  Thus, there is no place for Legends on the timeline unless the the story of Legends changes.

[Danial]

Thought I'd jump in with this little tidbit.

In the Castlevania Radio Chronicle, there is a flashback where Ryudomiru meets Alucard.  They talk about Lisa's death and Ryudomiru pledges his services to Alucard because Lisa healed his parents.  The Chronicle is Iga canon because he made it, and it's the prelude to his Alucard game, if that ever comes out.  The Chronicle takes place in 1798, and the flashback takes place in 1448.  Before this, Iga had always hinted Lisa died closer to CV3.  But now her death takes place almost right before Legends in 1450. 

Makes me wonder if Iga is actually considering on including Legends, at least in the way he gives a slight nod to CotM and the 64's.

[darkwzrd4]

Thought I'd jump in with this little tidbit.

In the Castlevania Radio Chronicle, there is a flashback where Ryudomiru meets Alucard.  They talk about Lisa's death and Ryudomiru pledges his services to Alucard because Lisa healed his parents.  The Chronicle is Iga canon because he made it, and it's the prelude to his Alucard game, if that ever comes out.  The Chronicle takes place in 1798, and the flashback takes place in 1448.  Before this, Iga had always hinted Lisa died closer to CV3.  But now her death takes place almost right before Legends in 1450. 

Makes me wonder if Iga is actually considering on including Legends, at least in the way he gives a slight nod to CotM and the 64's.

Interesting.  I did not know this.  If this is the case, then I think I'll take back what I said if Legends becomes a part of the official timeline again.

[Reinhart77]

Daniel, were you the one who pointed this out earlier about the time period of the radio drama?  Since then, my hopes for them re-instating Legends have been raised considerably.  Perhaps with Iga losing his role as "final word on all things Castlevania", Konami has been urging him to include the games that he had not worked on?  

I'm trying to grapple with how the events might have flowed if Legends, the radio drama, and everything else are included.  Perhaps the following:

1431 (date of Legends minus Sonia's age in that game):
- Mathias may have "become" Dracula at this time as he has reached some new level of power, the people tremble in fear but are powerless to do anything but voice their concern.  (from Legend's manual)
- Sonia is born about the same time.  Her gifts were evident at an early age and she would be trained to use a whip by her grandfather.
- Dracula meets Lisa, who resembles his previous wife Elizabetha (their resemblance is stated in an the Castlevania Encyclopedia in a Japanese magazine, she may be the reincarnation of Elizabetha) and they marry.  Dracula probably tones down on the evil while married to her and Alucard is born.  The three live peacefully at his castle and Lisa would help the people in Dracula's land.  Among the people Lisa would help are Lyudmil's parents.
1448 (based on year of Symphony of the Night plus one more year for the radio drama minus 150 years):
- The people of Lyudmil's town mistaken Lisa's medicine for witchcraft (from SotN) and execute her.  Lyudmil attempts to save her but fails and is driven out of town (from Radio Drama).  Dracula finds Lisa's body and mournes (from SotN manga advertisement).
- Alucard meets Lyudmil and Lyudmil pledges his services to him as he has no where else to go.  Their shared grief at Lisa's death makes them very close friends.
- Less than two months later (per Sypha's Judgment story), Dracula's force, led by Magnus, attacks the town that killed Lisa.  Lyudmil is a victim in the crossfire and to keep him from dying, Alucard turned him into a vampire.  This awoke Alucard's bloodlust and he probably went on a rampage, defeated Magnus, may have sucked the blood of many humans (the visions Magnus would later give Maria), and probably served his father's willingly for a while (well, that's my theory anyway)
- The church is alerted to the threat Dracula poses (perhaps after his attack on the village) and sends out Sypha to defeat Dracula two months after Lisa is killed (per Judgment), but she is turned to stone, and remains that way for 28 years
- Alucard begins to question what his father is doing and becomes "abandoned" by him (per Legends).
1450 (based on the date set for Legends):
- Sonia's grandfather is killed by Dracula's forces and he gives her the vampire hunter whip, she becomes determined to destroy Dracula (per Japanese version of Legends).  Its possible that her parents had been killed prior to this and that she was now the last Belmont (if the animated Dracula's Curse is correct).
- Alucard, looking for his father, meets Sonia who had just turned 17, and they become allies, friends, and have some sort affection for another.  I read at GameFAQs that Alucard trained Sonia, but cannot find a primary source to confirm this.
- When Alucard is ready, he decides to attempt to assassinate his father, but Sonia, who had also set out to the Castle to fulfill her destiny proves that she is up to the task by defeating him in a test.  Alucard slumbers.  Sonia defeats Dracula.  The castle crumbles.  He might have escaped though, just as he would escape Christopher during Castlevania: The Adventure.
Later:
- The people become afraid of Sonia for the power she displayed in being able to defeat Dracula and drive her out of the country (per Dracula's Curse).  This may have allowed Dracula to recover his strength and recover his position as ruler of Wallachia.
1456 (based on the year of CoD minus Trevor's age in Judgment set that same year): Trevor Belmont is born to Sonia.  Alucard is thus not the father.  His last name is Belmont in order to prevent the Belmont name from becoming extinct (reasonable hypothesis, coupled with idea he was the "last" Belmont per animated Dracula's Curse).
Later:
- Dracula starts rebuilding his power.  He is "peaceful" for a while and offers "sanctuary" to those in trouble from the church (per CoD manga), and trains two such people, Isaac and then Hector in the arts of devil forgery.
- Alucard reawakens and infiltrates his father's organization. (per Japanese Dracula's Curse)
- Dracula begins his full-fledged stage invasion of Europe with his devil forgemasters acting as generals and Alucard appearing to be at his side.  
- Grant stages a rebellion and is captured (per Japanese Dracula's Curse).  He and his men are turned into monsters (could have happened before the invasion of Europe).
1476 (based on year Dracula's Curse took place in):
- Trevor Belmont answers the church's call, calls himself a genuine vampire hunter and sets off to defeat Dracula.  He joins forces with Grant, Sypha, and Alucard.  Isaac begs to be sent to kill Trevor, but Dracula is not concerned and sends him to find Hector, who had defected (per Curse of Darkness manga).  Trevor and company kill Dracula for the first time.

[Archangel]

I like the way you think, Reinhardt, really.

But still: Why should Dracula be so reckless and sends Isaac to find Hector? He was almost whipped to death by a Belmont before... who could "easily" intrude his castle and get past his top monsters.


But aside that, it fits to me... although I don´t think Alucard would reunite with Draculas forces after Legends... I always thought that he, after telling Sonia that he´d set himself to sleep, sensed his father´s survival and kept a low profile. And when the time was right and Dracula resurfaced, he waited for Trevor to test him and, when he showed the strength of a true vampire hunter, join his forces.


Hmmm.... oh yeah, perhaps the Belmonts had a bad reputation before Sonia apparently slew Dracula. You must admit, the Belmonts had a 300 years + history of Vampire hunting....And Draculas defeat would be the final straw for Sonia to be expelled.

[Reinhart77]

i'm basing the infiltration part on the Dracula's Curse Japanese manual, which says that he infiltrated the underworld.  i'm also basing it on the Legacy of Darkness manga.  After learning of Hectors betrayal, the Succubus tells him Alucard has also betrayed him and Dracula is distraught.

Here is Alucard's entry from a translation on the Castlevania Realm:
The son opposed his father, who still had a human heart even after getting rid of soul, as his own body was no longer human as well and it
finally went to the point that he slesyd reminding himself of his hate for his father. However, he cannot challenge his own father, who is an evil
spirit himself, all alone as the odds are agaisnt him. Although his relationship to Dracula is a burden for the Cross, nonetheless, Adrian
Fahrenheit Tepes opted to fight anyway. He changed his name to Alucard and infiltrate Wallachia underground with the purpose of destroying
his father and restoring the beauty of Wallachia, he began searching for a comrade that shared the same ideal.


Here is the exchange in the Manga:
Dracula:  How could this be?  The God of Death has perished?
Succubus:  It was a Bemont
Dracula:  Belmont has come.  I never thought the Hall would fall so soon...
Succubus:  Well, of course.  The one coming with Belmont... Is your son after all Count.
Dracula:  Adrian...  Not just Hector, but now you, too...  Foolish betrayers...  You shall be cursed!  Humans who betray me...  ...as well as this world!  and God as well!  You shall learn, at great cost to you...  My sorrow and wrath!!

[Archangel]

Okay, I can´t recall what´s exactly stated in the CV3 Manual besides the whole Poltergeist King mess xD

But yeah, I remember what happenend in the Manga. It really seems like he joined his Father again... but why? Wouldn´t someone notice if he´s holding back and is not harming any humans? And wouldn´t they keep an eye on him, even more because he betrayed Dracula before?

And still, I don´t get why Dracula seems not to have learned anything from his encounter with Sonia, besides of amass an even more powerful army of Monsters and some Devil Forgers... and when one of his strongest is went missing, he sends the other one instead of killing Trever (although you could explain this as Isaac is on the same level as Hector.... if the latter turns out to betray them, Isaac would be the only one who could kill him)