Topic: Hopes and dreams for 2013?

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

Because being realistic is stupid. 

Isn't this the kind of attitude that got you banned?

Is it really that impossible for you to not make sarcastic and condescending remarks towards a fanbase?

jeeeez.

[Sumac]

[beingthehero]

Don't do it, last time i had a pm conversation with Sumac we compared man-boob sizes. He won.

[VladCT]

Sometimes I wonder how Jorge puts up with this shit.

[crisis]

Sometimes I wonder how Jorge puts up with this shit.

he'll make us do wand-ups D:


@beingthehero
what's the deal with your signature?? 

[Weiss Belmont]

Sometimes I wonder how Jorge puts up with this shit.

I assume he's had plenty of practice. I believe I've been on other forums that he's "been in charge of."

[Successor The Cruel]

A relationship with demonic beings who canonically become evil and gradually lose their human conscience, radically altering their minds?

Im supposing you had something like Rosa in mind, but those relationships never end well. Not to mention the afforementioned problem with it that LoI introduced.

Not really... if I understood you correctly. It's more about a being who was evil but starts becoming good. There would be no allusions to whatever humanity she may or may not have had. She would originally just appear as a boss, but things would start taking interesting turns.

Also, I don't know if the relationship would end up smoothly or not. But it would be interesting!

I would like to break out of the typical conventional storytelling Castlevania often uses, thus having a Belmont get whipped up on by Dracula, and having him fall for an evil seductive monster woman instead of trying to rescue a blonde damsel. I guess something similar happened with Alucard and Sonia, but it was so elementary, uninteresting, and in that case with those characters, a terrible idea, in my opinion.

I would also do some other things that aren't typically seen...

---

Risk taking and experiments aren't inherently bad. Symphony of the Night and Simon's Quest are both the result of that and I love those games. But most people don't want to see the series look, sound, and feel very unfamiliar. Most don't want to see its identity washed away. It's true that the MS games are a different and new approach (for CV, at least), but it's totally the wrong kind of different and new, in my opinion. As far as I can recall, none of us were asking for orcs and the like in our Castlevania. From what I can tell, most were pretty okay with the general aesthetic going on prior to LoS (save for the anime art). We just wanted games that were of a much more competent and fresh caliber, especially in the 3-D sector. OoE was really headed in the right direction to me, but it could have done without the generic DS-Vania look and presented a new style (that's where I say things like time and budget get in the way). That's not to say that I think changing artistic direction in some regards would be a bad idea. I would be alright with that if what was presented was great and appropriate for the series.

[DragonSlayr81]

Not really... if I understood you correctly. It's more about a being who was evil but starts becoming good. There would be no allusions to whatever humanity she may or may not have had. She would originally just appear as a boss, but things would start taking interesting turns.

Also, I don't know if the relationship would end up smoothly or not. But it would be interesting!

I would like to break out of the typical conventional storytelling Castlevania often uses, thus having a Belmont get whipped up on by Dracula, and having him fall for an evil seductive monster woman instead of trying to rescue a blonde damsel. I guess something similar happened with Alucard and Sonia, but it was so elementary, uninteresting, and in that case with those characters, a terrible idea, in my opinion.

I would also do some other things that aren't typically seen...

---

Risk taking and experiments aren't inherently bad. Symphony of the Night and Simon's Quest are both the result of that and I love those games. But most people don't want to see the series look, sound, and feel very unfamiliar. Most don't want to see its identity washed away. It's true that the MS games are a different and new approach (for CV, at least), but it's totally the wrong kind of different and new, in my opinion. As far as I can recall, none of us were asking for orcs and the like in our Castlevania. From what I can tell, most were pretty okay with the general aesthetic going on prior to LoS (save for the anime art). We just wanted games that were of a much more competent and fresh caliber, especially in the 3-D sector. OoE was really headed in the right direction to me, but it could have done without the generic DS-Vania look and presented a new style (that's where I say things like time and budget get in the way). That's not to say that I think changing artistic direction in some regards would be a bad idea. I would be alright with that if what was presented was great and appropriate for the series.

I actually don't think the original aesthetic was a problem. Let's bring up an interesting question. Was the look of LoS one of it's most defining factors that made it sell well? If it, let's play the "what if" wheel, had the same general look and style of classic CV games, classic monsters and such, but retained the same gameplay and story, would it have fared different? And before someone steps in and plays the "But, LoS's success was a combo effort of everything, not just one part", let me stop you mid stride and just say, with an open mind, "WHAT IF?". No "but"s, but "what if?". Would've adding more classic looking enemies really harm LoS? Would having more classic CV-styled music hurt it considerably? Would more classic platforming, less shimmying/grappling but a dent in it's mainstream popularity?

I assume he's had plenty of practice. I believe I've been on other forums that he's "been in charge of."

Jorge is one of the most patient administrators I've ever seen in any forum/message board I've ever went to. Believe me, and many here would back me up, there are some guys out there who would perma-ban peeps for some of the antics that go on here in half a thought.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

The condescending ramblings do need to end.
Sumac, the fact that you're still under Watched status (the moderation is still watching over your posts) means that you have to take care of the words you use.  This also means that, at times, you have to just shut the hell up instead of letting your baser instincts get to you.

By the way, I actually agree with you; the companies' top priority is to be profitable, and Castlevania's divisive factors will continue to prevent it from being profitable (just not popular in Japan, struggling to find a stable identity, attempting to cover so many holes from 'fighting game' to 'multi-person adventure' to 'puzzle game', etc.).

But you're a total ass in the way you explain yourself.
And since you've been banned before, you are considered a repeat offender.  Next time you have a thought about responding in a condescending way... in fact, next time you have anything to say about the community at all... let the thought go and post about something else, will you?  I'm tired of telling you and I will not be telling you again.

This thread has become poisonous.  I'm not going to clean up people's posts but I have had the thought to come around and do so.  I think you guys all need to take a step back, use the new year to think of something positive to say and let go of this incessant pettiness.

[JoshuaKadmon]

I don't have a huge issue with LoS, but as a long-time fan of CV, I have a difficult time accepting it into the franchise. Taken by itself, it's a good action game, if a bit linear. But compared to heavyweights like God of War and Bayonetta, it doesn't do anything especially innovative for the third-person action genre. And since it also doesn't fit into the existing Castlevania timeline, it just makes the whole experience feel a bit pointless. Nevertheless, it manages to make respectable nods to other games in the series. LoS2 promises more non-linear elements, which may satisfy that Metroidvania level design that fans crave, but I'd also like the combat mechanics to be more intuitive and responsive. Knowing that LoS is a limited spin-off that will end after one more console title and a handheld release makes the shift in direction easier to accept on some level, but for the same reason, it makes me feel like there's no need to get invested in the whole thing. In short, LoS is not bad, but it doesn't offer enough in either direction (hardcore old-school fandom vs innovative next-gen action) to win unanimous support. That's why it has become such a debatable entry in the series. Am I right?

Secondly, as for the art style debate... For years, I have wanted to see the games move closer to Ayami Kojima's artwork, whether that meant more detailed 2D sprites and more frames of animation or 3D models with stylized textures and cel shading. I used to be a much bigger fan of anime in the late 80s to mid-90s, but the contrast between AoS and DoS in their shift from Kojima to anime (even within a single story arc, for crying out loud) was too stark to ignore. It especially sucks because DoS was among the best CV titles for its gameplay. I thought LoS did a respectable job of visually representing CV's classic aesthetics, as you could almost imagine it as the next-gen evolution of Super Castlevania IV, but even so, it still slipped backwards towards a more generic medieval style. The anime style is a bit generic too, though it's on the opposite end of the blandness spectrum. That's why Ayami Kojima's style, which mixes realism with Renaissance artistry, Victorian opulence with a hint of anime edginess, works so well for Castlevania. After all, CV was created by the Japanese based on Western inspirations, something that Kojima's style conveys perfectly.

Finally, I do not believe that fans totally control the direction of Castlevania, and I don't believe that Konami owes us anything in particular (or as Sumac likes to say, "OWNS us something"...). However, I believe that CV has become a franchise that is too long-running for Konami to ignore while also being slightly antiquated from the mainstream perspective, perhaps due to its adherence to classic formulas. That means that the mainstream masses often ignore the classic Metroidvania releases, thus making them look like financial failures, while LoS does better with arguably generic, GoW-clone cinematic action. Ultimately, I think Konami listens to its fans to dynamically figure out what to try next, but due to the modest returns on most installments, they don't always put their best effort (read: funding) towards the next experiment.

Think about it. Konami felt like CV had to move towards 3D in order to stay successful, so they created LoI and CoD. But that dissatisfied long-time fans and didn't do anything to gain new third-person action fans. Fail. So Konami looked for a viable way to deliver the classic Metroidvania style in an innovative way, which led back to handhelds. Those were good, but handhelds weren't necessarily the platform of choice for hardcore fans who were still interested in the Metroidvania gameplay. Partial fail. They turned back to consoles and decided to test the network waters with a multiplayer-capable throwback to fan-favorite characters and settings, but that did nothing to interest the players who were accustomed to soloing their way through the puzzle-filled, carefully mapped corridors of CV classics. Unsurprising fail. It's not surprising that Konami would turn to outsourcing an entry or two with LoS in order to take an objective look at what they needed to do to move forward. If nothing else, LoS has provided some insight and perspective on what fans want, gotten them more vocal on both sides of the debate, and even managed to get a few new people involved. And fortunately, since LoS IS in a different timeline, it would not have damaged the CV legacy even if it had been received poorly.

Personally, I think Konami will continue searching for a way to make Castlevanias that can satisfy its existing fanbase while offering enough cinematic flair and compelling action to drive mainstream sales. Igarashi may or may not have the ability to do that, but I applaud his efforts to make consolidated sense of the timeline. Also, say what you will about Pachislot, but the fact is, it's a multi-billion-yen industry in Japan, provides tons of extra revenue, and is taken quite seriously by aging players who hold more disposable income to drive the broader gaming market. The Arcade is also an oddity, but I fully expect to see it announced as a Wii U or Kinect port in the next TGS (maybe earlier).

Castlevania may never completely satisfy both sides of the old-school vs mainstream debate, but Konami won't permanently retire one of the longest-running franchises in console gaming history. Instead, they will remain consistent only in their inconsistency, continuously testing market niches that can contain the series while generating respectable profits. Fan opinion will certainly weigh into that, as well, but it's not the final word on the subject. Still, we DO hold some degree of influence, and our discussions here can be productive and influential.

[crisis]

I thought LoS did a respectable job of visually representing CV's classic aesthetics, as you could almost imagine it as the next-gen evolution of Super Castlevania IV, but even so, it still slipped backwards towards a more generic medieval style.

That's why Ayami Kojima's style, which mixes realism with Renaissance artistry, Victorian opulence with a hint of anime edginess, works so well for Castlevania. After all, CV was created by the Japanese based on Western inspirations, something that Kojima's style conveys perfectly.

I love Kojima's artstyle, and for those people that say she could only draw "womanly" faces in all her portraits (granted she's guilty of a handful, but not as much as people make it seem), they've obviously never looked at Santa Lilio Sangre; that artbook is chock-full of many different unique character designs, all well-suited for Castlevania. Hell, the book could've been titled "Castlevania: A Visual Guide" and everyone would be singing praises.

The artstyle of LoS is confusing to me. At times it seems it's consistent with what it wants to look, and other times there's representations that clashes with the same style it uses. I don't know if that was done intentionally or otherwise. For instance,





^these are excellent artworks that absolutely scream Castlevania. I love them and the artist really hit the mark with these.


then there's the generic uninspired stuff like this:




(sorry for all you Lord of the Rings naysayyers but the similarities are undeniable)
I'm not even gonna post examples of the CG orcs & goblins. Had they marketed the game with this concept art alone, then I doubt anyone here could tell it was gonna be a Castlevania game. Then there's the static comic-book-y images they used for the DLC but I'm not gonna get into that. The sketch-like images for the beastiary & character profiles were nice, I liked them a lot, but that's just what they were, sketches. I expect that type of stuff in a "making-of" artbook, rather than in-game. The character portraits should've looked more "refined" and polished*, but that's just me. Perhaps in LoS2 it'll be this way.

Hopefully in LoS2 they stick to 1 distinct artstyle, and from the looks of it, it's shaping up nicely.


*The art they did for pre-vampire Carmilla was excellent, imo

[Flame]

I loved the Bestiary and Character images. I feel like that is the definitive art style that Los WANTS to have, but ultimately doesnt really deliver on due to trying to be realistic at the same time.

[Puwexil]

I hope and dream to be genuinely excited about Castlevania again. I haven't felt that way in a long time.

[Weiss Belmont]

Yes, no, maybe so. 

I don't have a huge issue with LoS, but as a long-time fan of CV, I have a difficult time accepting it into the franchise. Taken by itself, it's a good action game, if a bit linear. But compared to heavyweights like God of War and Bayonetta, it doesn't do anything especially innovative for the third-person action genre.

Agreed but you're being very unfair here. Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness didn't add anything to the third-person action genre that GoW didn't do already. And even the 2D Castlevania's didn't do much that wasn't already done by Zelda and Metroid. Castlevania's strong points have never been in innovation, but rather the perfection of already existing genres and play-styles.

And since it also doesn't fit into the existing Castlevania timeline, it just makes the whole experience feel a bit pointless.

I think "identity" was the issue with Lords lackluster reception, not it's place in the timeline.

Knowing that LoS is a limited spin-off that will end after one more console title and a handheld release makes the shift in direction easier to accept on some level, but for the same reason, it makes me feel like there's no need to get invested in the whole thing. In short, LoS is not bad, but it doesn't offer enough in either direction (hardcore old-school fandom vs innovative next-gen action) to win unanimous support. That's why it has become such a debatable entry in the series. Am I right?

Yes and no. The N64 games were really awful, just the worst games in the entire series and yet you still find a number of marks who think those games were awesome when they were textbook shit. I do think you are correct in that LoS does not offer much to the hardcore or old-school Castlevania fans to become really invested into the entry but I don't think it's due to length rather it's just basically another God of War clone. Lords of Shadow really didn't have much, if anything, that separated it from GoW in terms of gameplay. The music was great yes, the art was amazing yes, but we were basically playing as Kratos Belmont. Even though there were similarities between Castlevania and other titles on the market there were always enough differences to make Castlevania feel unique - that was until the Lords of Shadow entry. And while I really did enjoy the day and night settings of Lords of Shadow and some meager globe-trotting which was also a nice touch, it didn't exactly feel like Castlevania from an environment standpoint. CoD allowed you to traverse the countryside and it still felt very much like Castlevania due largely in part to the art style and the tone that art gave off. The team at Kojima Productions put together gorgeous environments but those environments were missing the horror and sinister feel you need in a Castlevania.

Secondly, as for the art style debate... For years, I have wanted to see the games move closer to Ayami Kojima's artwork, whether that meant more detailed 2D sprites and more frames of animation or 3D models with stylized textures and cel shading. I used to be a much bigger fan of anime in the late 80s to mid-90s, but the contrast between AoS and DoS in their shift from Kojima to anime (even within a single story arc, for crying out loud) was too stark to ignore. It especially sucks because DoS was among the best CV titles for its gameplay. I thought LoS did a respectable job of visually representing CV's classic aesthetics, as you could almost imagine it as the next-gen evolution of Super Castlevania IV, but even so, it still slipped backwards towards a more generic medieval style. The anime style is a bit generic too, though it's on the opposite end of the blandness spectrum. That's why Ayami Kojima's style, which mixes realism with Renaissance artistry, Victorian opulence with a hint of anime edginess, works so well for Castlevania. After all, CV was created by the Japanese based on Western inspirations, something that Kojima's style conveys perfectly.

I agree with you in most of your points, especially about the generic anime design of certain titles. The only part where I disagree with you is the comment about the "generic medieval style." I personally don't have an issue with that because that's the style the game opened with. Don't get me wrong, I hold Kojima's style in much, much higher regard but I just don't have any issue with the generic medieval design of CV.

and I don't believe that Konami owes us anything in particular

I'm sorry to hear that. No offense but your mindset - that companies don't owe us - is the reason the industry is in the mess it's in today. Legions of fans have supported companies like Konami, Capcom, Square-Enix, Sega, and EA for years and yeah they do owe us a hell of a lot because we made them what they are today. If we didn't buy their games they wouldn't exist. Period. For more than a decade these companies knew they owed us a whole hell of a lot because they knew we made them. During this particular console generation however these companies changed their attitude and felt, somehow, through some self-appointed delusion that they no longer owe us. Hence the reason that Capcom, Sega, Square-Enix, and EA have started to screw their fans. And the fans have responded to this arrogance by not buying their shit. Capcom and Square-Enix have seen all of their properties take a hit financially and EA has been no stranger to criticism. Sega didn't even have enough money to develop Bayonetta 2 hence the deal between them and Nintendo and I can assure you that the only reason, the only reason Konami hasn't caught hell from the fans is because Konami knows they owe us. Fans say they want more Metal Gear so Konami tells their teams to get to work. Fans say they want more Castlevania so Konami kicks in Cox's door and tells him to get er done. Konami is still commercially successful because they are doing what's good for business and what is good for business is keeping your fanbase happy. Do some research and look at all the publishers who have caught hell this console generation from their fans. You're going to see massive amounts of hate towards Capcom, Square-Enix, and EA and you're going to see comparable decline in their interest of their flagship properties. Now if you look at Konami's fanbase it's still pretty sizeable from MGS alone and that's because Konami keeps their fans happy. Their business kinda depends on it. If you don't believe me look at Capcom's and Square-Enix's fall from grace brought on by the ideology "We don't owe our fans anything."

Ultimately, I think Konami listens to its fans to dynamically figure out what to try next, but due to the modest returns on most installments, they don't always put their best effort (read: funding) towards the next experiment.

I'll agree with that.

If nothing else, LoS has provided some insight and perspective on what fans want, gotten them more vocal on both sides of the debate, and even managed to get a few new people involved. And fortunately, since LoS IS in a different timeline, it would not have damaged the CV legacy even if it had been received poorly.

Will LoS provide insight into what fans want? No. No it won't. Part of the reason is because Lords was meant to appeal to the mainstream audience. Hence the reason it had more in common with GoW than CV. Konami already knows what the fans want. However, Konami wants to get a bigger share of that mainstream market which is where companies "think" their profits need to come from nowadays. Castlevania was basically GoW-lite and even the mainstream GoW audiences didn't buy it like hotcakes because they just played a GoW starring a guy named Kratos rather than Gabriel.

Personally, I think Konami will continue searching for a way to make Castlevanias that can satisfy its existing fanbase while offering enough cinematic flair and compelling action to drive mainstream sales.

Yeah but it won't work. Final Fantasy XIII and Resident Evil 6 were monumental disasters born out of those respective publishers need to appeal to both newcomers and longtime fans.

Castlevania may never completely satisfy both sides of the old-school vs mainstream debate, but Konami won't permanently retire one of the longest-running franchises in console gaming history.

That's what people said about Capcom and Mega Man.

I'll end my contribution to this topic by tackling the main question which is Hopes and Dreams for 2013 - but I'll gear this towards Castlevania as a series. I really hope that Konami abandons this poisonous model of trying to appeal to everyone. Because even if a person has no business acumen they know that when you try to please everyone you don't please anyone. The reception of Resident Evil 6 and Final Fantasy XIII are more than enough proof of that. I hope that Konami establishes what type of fanbase they want CV to focus on before they shelf this series like Capcom did with Mega Man (and what Sega should have done a decade ago with Sonic). Atlus has proven that you don't have to make your properties mainstream just to stay profitable and I hope Konami follows their model when it comes to Castlevania.

[beingthehero]

Lament and Curse both came out before god of war