Topic: LoS: Why do some fans hate it?

[beingthehero]

"rearanged tunes" a castlevania game does not make. SC4, SoTN and AoS, as well as a few others, used very few rearanged tunes, I dont see you complaining about them. 

This reminded me of an old review on Gamefaqs that gave SotN a 2/10 because there was no remix of Vampire Killer. It's been taken down since, but it was the most beautiful thing.

The same guy did this review: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/919558-neo-contra/reviews/review-83012

[crisis]

Except the game was deliberately made so as to create an origin for both the Belmont clan, Dracula, and their feud. So it tells us a bit about Leon, and a bit about his friend. but, we never actually see the friend, whereas we play as Leon the whole game. Leon gets characterization. Mathias is just sort of forgotten until it's time for him to become Dracula. Even though we all know he will become Dracula because the story is right out of the Brahm Stoker's Dracula movie.

And it does well to accomplish that goal. Mathias can't do much since he's letting everyone do his dirty work for him (like a true boss). It doesn't need a long, drawn out story with several pages of monologue revealing Mathias/Leon's deepest thoughts & secrets. Mathias chose to be in the shadows the whole time (I believe he's even seen in one of the cutscenes, it's been a while since I've played)

If they wanted us to feel any sort of emotion upon his big OOH WHAT A TWEEEST they should have done more with him in the story. SHOW him at his sickbed. SHOW him buddy buddies with Leon before the events of the game start. SOMETHING. SHOW his struggle with his faith.

I don't see why any of this is important. It was explained in the intro who Mathias is & why he wasn't aiding Leon, and they left it at that, as it should be. But perhaps a monologue or 8 with Leonard Nimoy's voice droning on how sad he is would've been better (bleh)

Again, they nevr show us his thoughts. We are led to believe that as soon as that happened, he said "WELP, MY WIFE IS DEAD. FUCK YOU GOD, IMMA GO SCREW OVER MY BFF AND KILL HIS WIFE SO I CAN GET REVENGE ON YOU BY NOT DYING."

Mathias was just using Leon as a means to an end, which is why he offered Leon a chance at immortality since he suffered as much as he did, "after all you've been through, Leon, you should know!" That showed that even at that moment he still cared for Leon to a degree, despite being "bat-shit insane." To borrow a point you made earlier, he used the typical "you're either with me or against me" line, similar to how Anakin says to Obiwan, which I think makes him sorta Darth Vader-esque in that respect, a feature you liken to Gabriel's fall, yet you only credit the latter?

btw he didn't kill Leon's wife.

His entrance is just so halfassed. he just steps in, monologues, then leaves. You dont even FIGHT him.

His entrance was an homage to how Dracula just appears at the end of every CV game. We don't fight him because A. Leon would've probably kill him, and B. Canon dictates Trevor was the first to kill him. But really, it's no more halfassed than Satan showing up at the end and saying DIE BELMONT (a line which should've been reserved for Dracula & no one else)

I dont give a shit about his feelings or about how he felt God betrayed him by letting his wife die, because we dont KNOW him. At ALL prior to that point. Leon we know. Sarah we get to know a little bit. Him? nothing.

We only know about Gabriel's feelings through what Zobek tells us in his long speeches (which is technically hearsay). Likewise, I don't give a shit about him feeling all sorry for himself either, because in the grand scheme of LoS he was still just a puppet for reasons I explained earlier. Mathias pulled the strings to become Dracula, whereas Gabriel followed directions & pretty much says "guess I should become evil now since there's nothing left to do," despite him telling Satan how good God is & he loves him soo much.

I also like the fact that canon-Dracula became a vampire through his own, unconventional means, rather than being sired by another vampire in typical fashion. Debating is fun

[A-Yty]

It's not completely a double standard if the game in question is closer to CV than GoW, for example. Of course it's best if CV manages to walk its own path, but if it abso-darn-lutely has to ape something, Demon's / Dark Souls is a fine choice.

[Kingshango]

I guess it all boils down to personal preference to which Dracula you perfer, the stratigic pacifist who manipulated his way to achieve his goals, or the manipulated fallen hero who fought for what he thought was right.

Personally I think were jumping the gun on Gabula considering we've only seen 7 minutes of him at his worst and we've seen Mathias at his best and worst for 25 years. We should wait and see If Gabula can proove to be worthy of the name Dracula before calling him "the worst Dracula in human existance known to man."

[crisis]

i agree Kingshangy, Mathias-Dracula has a lot more credentials since Gabula is still just a baby in the world o.o;

[Nagumo]

Gabula can probably mist dodge just like Laura. That's one good thing about him.    

[Dracula9]

I don't exactly hate it for the reasons listed beforehand, but rather in the wasted opportunity that I think they could have done.

The Gabriel-Dracula ending has clearly pissed a lot of people off because of the "no Dracula fight and it's not really Belmont" aspect of it. I see that ending as a great opportunity to build a bridge in the 1999 gap we've been left with.

Everything I'm about to say mainly revolved around my belief that LoS occurs before all other CV games, in the year 1047. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't want an argument based on faulty timeline knowledge.

Why not write the plot so that Gabriel, before this change, bore a son that later became the initial instigator of the original Belmont bloodline. Gabriel becomes Dracula, creating an ironic twist as his descendants must kill their original father for a thousand years to come. Then, in the ending where he and Zobek fall to the modern city streets, connect that time to the Demon Castle Wars, in which Julius would finally kill Gabula. Irony and twists-of-fate arise, and one could even base Julius' AoS amnesia on this revelation.

Granted, I might be totally off in my timelines and all that, but CV hasn't been known for its stellar timeline consistency. I'm less angry that the game doesn't follow traditional Castlevania concepts, or raise the bar to what we CV fans have come to expect, but moreso on what I see as wasted potential for a crazy-good plot twist.

Actually, I take that back. The Titan fights did piss me off considerably.

[Dark Nemesis]

And if I wanted to watch a B grade monster movie Id go to netflix, not play an NES game. Your point is invalid since the classicvanias do the movie thing too, just differently.

  They might do in a way the movie thing too, but they are still creatures that they are connected with the legend of Dracula and mythological  and not fantasy.

No, it isnt. Its just an unlockable character with no story.

  The fact that he doesn't have dialogues, doesn't mean he has no story. Then most of the classic castlevanias, they are not main games, since they don't have dialogues, only start from point A and finish to point B. He plays like the old games, where they didn't have dialogues. Castlevania, Castlevania Adventure, Castlevania Belmont's Revenge, Super Castlevania IV. You play with Richter, before Alucard or Maria arrived at the castle.

They had very slight variations on the same gameplay style, which is, grind levels and find different weapons to use. (Except CotM that is, which uses a whip) they are all metroidvanias, and the ameplay differences are aside from the main way of fighting.

  So, the DSS system, the magic/whip system on HoD, soul system and glyph system, qualify as the same with SOTN?

The original castlevania wasnt 3D with odd whipping controls and skeleton motorcycles

  Of course it wasn't 3D, but Castlevania 64, might have the motorcycle skeletons, that they are incorect for the time period the game takes place, but while the whipping controls are odd, it still uses clasic whipping and subweapons style, like all previous games and not a rip-off from some other game.

"rearanged tunes" a castlevania game does not make. SC4, SoTN and AoS, as well as a few others, used very few rearanged tunes, I dont see you complaining about them.

  I don't complain about them, because their music style is still faithful to the vibe that the series are known for and not some generic opera music.

Bats, gremlins, Wargs, trolls, skeletons, ghouls, mandrakes along with many others are classic enemies, but re-invisioned. Not to mention the Lords of Shadow themselves are re-invisioned classic characters, which stay true to their original counterparts. (well, Zobek in name doesnt resemble anyone, but clearly he is supposed to be Death) And LoS finally brought us in stage vampires, the first game to do so since CV64

  gremlins and trolls, aren't classic enemies, i don't recall them in any previous game. There are many enemies that they were missing and the total was, many generic enemies and few classic. As for Lords of Shadows, some they have nice redesign, while other, are horribly, just to watch.

so I asume you dont like SotN, AoS, LoI, OoE, or most of the metroidvanias do you? they have far from simple stories

  Does anyone read what i'm writing? Stories come second or third for me. What i'm looking is game play and music first and then the rest.

  Maybe, but they shouldnt complain about it "ripping off" this or that game, and then saying it should be more like another game. That's just double standard

  I believe, they are talking about aesthetics and not game play.

[Ahasverus]

I don't complain about them, because their music style is still faithful to the vibe that the series are known for and not some generic opera music.

Hahaahahahah! this reinforces my theory about the LoS music appealing to people who know about music or appreciate it as a form of art and not a medium of enterteiment. Opera? Really?

They might do in a way the movie thing too, but they are still creatures that they are connected with the legend of Dracula and mythological  and not fantasy.

Yeah, because Frankenstein, Hydra, Death, Legion and all those recycled enemies are sooo tied to the original Dracula legend. Also, tell me the difference between something mythological and somethig fantastic.

it still uses clasic whipping and subweapons style, like all previous games and not a rip-off from some other game.

LoS combat is fantastic. it has the heavy feeling of the whip-swinging from the OldVanias but also the agility of New-Vanias. I think it's pretty much eprfect (control responsiveness aside)

gremlins and trolls

Trolls are, only with different designs.
Troll
Castlevania has always being of adapting ANY type of fantasy enemy it can (hey, we even slayed INDIAN GODS MULTIPLE TIMES IN OOE) goblins are not far fetched. And I like them, because, you know, CV takes plane IN EUROPE not tokyo so Goblins are kind of the creaures ttaht really belong to local lore.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

Trolls are, only with different designs.
Troll

A bit of a nitpick, but those are only called cave trolls in the English translation. In the Japanese version they're called chupacabras.

[thernz]

No, I think that only applied to SoTN's inaccurate but quirky translation. And gremlins were in SoTN too.

owned

[A-Yty]

The Gabriel-Dracula ending has clearly pissed a lot of people off because of the "no Dracula fight and it's not really Belmont" aspect of it. I see that ending as a great opportunity to build a bridge in the 1999 gap we've been left with.

That's two different continuities.

[K.G. Morder]

http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Gremlin

Also yeah the Cave Troll was only known as such in the translations, in Japan they were Chupacabras. Which means that annoying little fuck that steals your gear is another old enemy reinvisioned.

Also zombies. Land of the necromancers had zombies. There were also the headless ones, which tossed their heads and burrowed underground.

And the Mechanical Monstrosity is quite clearly the traditional Frankenstein monster type. Hell, Frankenstein's lab was pretty pot on. electricity and shit everywhere, and the Clockwork Tower will always be my favorite stage in Lords.

but they are still creatures that they are connected with the legend of Dracula and mythological  and not fantasy.

Tell me what the hell Greek mythology has to do with Dracula. or Eldritch monsters like Cthulhu for that matter.

Also, I concur. Whats the difference between Mythology and Fantasy?

The fact that he doesn't have dialogues, doesn't mean he has no story.

its not about dialogue. He is an unlockable character. In SoTN, he is supposed to be controlled by shaft. There is no room for his own story anywhere in there. They simply give you Richter and let you go through the game as him. Simple as that. The manual gives us no backstory on why Richter is suddenly going through the same Castle Alucard did, and neither does the game.Classicvanias had intros. Which told us of what was up. That and manuals with character bios. Or are you about to tell me Pumpkin from LoI has a story too? Joachim really only has the story of "wanting to beat Walter" and after he does we get a shot of him laughing on Walter's throne. But that doesnt mean his story actually happens. Its just a bonus, nothing more.

  So, the DSS system, the magic/whip system on HoD, soul system and glyph system, qualify as the same with SOTN?

Except those are the ONLY gameplay differences. the gimmick. Other than that, they all are based after the Alucard gameplay in SoTN. walk around finding better weapons in a metroid like map and grinding levels. they simply give you a different gimmick gameplay ability.

, it still uses clasic whipping and subweapons style,

Gabriel whips and uses Classic subweapons, what are you talking about?

Holy water,
Daggers,

and the only new ones are fairies, and Purple crystals, which are basically a screen clearing item crash- like other vanias.

And I daresay LoS had better 3D whip swinging than CV64 OR LoI. Its much more combo friendly than LoI's was, and isnt as stiff.

Does anyone read what i'm writing? Stories come second or third for me. What i'm looking is game play and music first and then the rest.

Except you are mentioning story, that they should have simple stories. if story comes second or third for you, then LoS' story should be of no concern to you.

That's two different continuities.

Im pretty sure that LoS was aiming at something similar with it's epilogue, putting it in modern day.

[A-Yty]

Even if that were so, it won't be the 1999 battle that has been teased for years.

[thernz]

Lords is kinda just weird. It tries to be its own thing, but then it sets up all these parallels to the old series. It just comes off as strange like it's trying to pander for fans despite its intentions.

it's like make up your mind

The main issue I have with Lords is how confusing its direction is, rather than how it rips such and such. I mean, hey, it does combat better than the thing it's ripping off (God of War), besides its reliance on QTEs disguised as grabs, and how its extra combat mechanics and enemy designs subvert the comboing because it encourages turtling instead of actually using the combo system, of course that is still better than GoW's empty and depthless system, and this is a run-on sentence, better deal with it, deal with it, deal with it.