I must say that this game is pretty bad-ass. The visuals are some of the best if not the best I have seen on Xbox 360. The music is a real treat for the ears. The symphonic melodies and battle born harmonies are just pure and simple what you would expect from Castlevania.i'd just like to point out that this is a prime example of Castlevania being different things to different people. Many people blasted the music as too orchestral, and whatnot. To this guy, it's great music, and moreso, it's "castlevania music" to him.
Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone- Where did you go that you can get a used 360 game for 15 bucks? Have I been out of the game store loop that long? are used 360 prices that low these days?
The gameplay is pretty great, but I have noticed it's pretty difficult.
The thing about LoS' soundtrack is, it matches the mood of the game. Try and play through the game with the volume off and turn up a Yamane soundtrack instead; it doesn't match at all (except for a few tracks.) SotN's OST is perfect for the game. Belmont's Revenge OST is perfect. It's all about different styles.I'm fond of Unholy Church myself, which WAS in the original LoS, but I prefer it in MoF.
My fav LoS tune is Belmont's Theme, I listen to it every other day. Mirror of Fate, "The Den," is also a good track, albeit way too short. I can only hope LoS2 has a lot more memorable catchy tunes!
Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone- Where did you go that you can get a used 360 game for 15 bucks? Have I been out of the game store loop that long? are used 360 prices that low these days?
I think that's why the former is loved by a lot of people while the latter received lots of criticism or at least heavily conflicting opinions.Ten hairy guys arguing the same things on a messageboard for 5(!) years versus 2Million+ Sales is not what i'd call lots of criticism.
Ten hairy guys arguing the same things on a messageboard for 5(!) years versus 2Million+ Sales is not what i'd call lots of criticism.
And with LoS we have... I guess... Waterfalls of Agharta and... Belmont theme? Neither of which is particularly hummable/catchy (and one is arguably a remaster/remake of a CV4 tune). MoF has... I can't think of any in particular, either (and I own both of these games).
A lot of what I'm hearing here is "Well, this is how they did it in the past games so that's how they should do it now."Aria's Soundtrack I thought was alright. but then again, it's GBA quality. (still better than most of HoD) but what truly makes Aria shine isn't really the music, but the plot, the novelty of the tweest, the setting, (again plot) and the gameplay, all of which wrapped together more or less gave us a SoTN 2. Now, DoS on the other hand... Is forgettable in every respect. Even the music. I really didn't like DoS soundtrack. Mainly, i disliked the way it sounded. i SHOULD like Vampire killer and all those other tunes. But i don't like how they sound on the DS.
The whole point of LoS' soundtrack was to give the game more of a cinematic feel. 90% of games now are basically trying to be movies for better or worse, and as such, they emulate the vibe of how a movie would tell the story they're trying to tell. I think a lot of you guys are really missing the point. I actually found LoS' soundtrack to be very beautiful and melodic.
If I'm being honest, the Sorrow games had pretty forgettable soundtracks, as did OoE. None of those games really felt terribly Castlevania in terms of soundtrack where I'm concerned.
Aria's Soundtrack I thought was alright. but then again, it's GBA quality. (still better than most of HoD) but what truly makes Aria shine isn't really the music, but the plot, the novelty of the tweest, the setting, (again plot) and the gameplay, all of which wrapped together more or less gave us a SoTN 2. Now, DoS on the other hand... Is forgettable in every respect. Even the music. I really didn't like DoS soundtrack. Mainly, i disliked the way it sounded. i SHOULD like Vampire killer and all those other tunes. But i don't like how they sound on the DS.
Aria's Soundtrack I thought was alright. but then again, it's GBA quality.
A lot of what I'm hearing here is "Well, this is how they did it in the past games so that's how they should do it now."
The whole point of LoS' soundtrack was to give the game more of a cinematic feel. 90% of games now are basically trying to be movies for better or worse, and as such, they emulate the vibe of how a movie would tell the story they're trying to tell. I think a lot of you guys are really missing the point. I actually found LoS' soundtrack to be very beautiful and melodic.
If I'm being honest, the Sorrow games had pretty forgettable soundtracks, as did OoE. None of those games really felt terribly Castlevania in terms of soundtrack where I'm concerned.
I think part of what we're talking about has to do with hardware limitations. If they could have done full orchestra tracks in the NES days, I'll bet dollars to donuts that they would have. This is the first generation (okay MAYBE second) generation that they've been able to do full-on orchestral soundtracks and they're finally taking advantage of that. I almost wonder if they composed a lot of the songs for the earlier games the way they did because that's all they could do with what they had to work with.
I almost wonder if they composed a lot of the songs for the earlier games the way they did because that's all they could do with what they had to work with.Well, yes.
I feel like the soundtrack really picks up around 'Waterfalls Of Agharta.'well that's not too surprising, given Waterfalls of Agharta is an orchestral remix of The Waterfall from SCIV
Believe me, I don't want to sound big headed, but I've studied music for a lot of years, and LoS is nothing like classical music, and with classical I mean classical, romantic, baroque and every iteration that is commonly referred to as classical music. Chord progressions, arrangements, melodies and overall structure is very different.
It's just... Araujo.
Respectfully, no. You're the one missing the point. We understand perfectly well the reasoning behind the music. We just don't agree with it and for me personally that has nothing to do with my opinion that emulating Hollywood is bad.
This push for cinematic music does nothing to improve my enjoyment of the game or it's story. I can understand and sympathize with the narrative and the characters there in just fine without an aural queue.
Orchestration != Cinematic/Hollywood.
In the beginning vg music was simpler because they were restricted in how much they could do, yes. But that grew into it's own style of sorts. The amount of space a song took up on a cart was a very big deal back in the day. But even after that stopped being an issue vg music was still vg music.
After all Los has been from day 1 a dudebro-forget-everything-you-know-oh-and-btw-castlevania production.
I don't think you do get the reasoning behind it. Is it the best soundtrack in any game ever? No. But it accomplishes what it set out to do and that is, accentuate the different moods and scenes of the game. It's not meant to be a centerpiece in and of itself. The sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves. This is what I think people fail to understand. You say you get it, but I really don't think you do. You're too busy going, "ITZ NOT CASSLEVANYUUUHHHHH!" that you're missing the fact that this game was supposed to be a departure, and as such, it was going to give the team the freedom to reinterpret the vibe of it without being constrained by past games.
I don't know if you mean it that way, but you make it sound like anyone who enjoys the game is a dudebro. Just sayin', it's kind of insulting. :-X
90% of games now are basically trying to be movies for better or worse,This is not something that should be encouraged.
I was referring to the demographic that Konami was most concerned with. I never said anything about who actually likes it.Eeeeh it kind of came off that way a bit.
I recall hearing someone say once: All VG music composers should learn to compose chiptunes before working on real music for games. that way they learn to make melodic music under limitations.
I don't know if you mean it that way, but you make it sound like anyone who enjoys the game is a dudebro. Just sayin', it's kind of insulting. :-X
The problem does not reside on the instruments used. It's just Araujo's ways which did it all.
Simplistic chord progressions, lack of closure to ideas, lack of melody, repetitive arrangements and total absence of emotion
well that's not too surprising, given Waterfalls of Agharta is an orchestral remix of The Waterfall from SCIV
The Waterfall: Super Castlevania 4 Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgit8zlIupo#)
Ironically, the best parts of the soundtrack, Belmont's theme aside, ARE the orchestral remixes of classic tunes.
Dudebro gamers to me are more like those that just play whatever is popularSo... SoTN is a dudebro game..? it DID after all, copy Super Metroid, which was incredibly popular and still relatively new at the time.
When I think of music for a gothic game that's trying to appeal to "dudebros" I think of upbeat music with thumping electric guitar and solos. We heard a lot of this in the IGA games and even some in Rondo of Blood.This is my biggest problem with CV HD. It's ALL rock and it all starts sounding incredibly generic after a while.
...and they did it without cheep hooks and cheesy guitar rock
I understand all of that just fine, I just don't agree with nor like the degree to which they took it. It is possible to depart so far from the things that characterize a series of works to the point that it might as well have not been included in that series at all. The score of LoS is far away from even being similar to any soundtrack that came before it in the CV franchise.
As far as my point of view it doesn't matter that it's "CASSLEVANYUUUHHHHH". If they had done this sort of score for a reboot of Megaman, Super Mario, Sonic, or Contra I wouldn't like it either because it wouldn't fit the character of those series any more than it did here.
What you seem to be missing is that, reboot or not, they presented LoS as a part of the Castlevania series which inextricably connects it to the character of that series and all those things that it has been known for since 1986. Just because they were intentionally departing from the old canon doesn't make the score fit the game as part of the Castlevania series any better. If they had dropped the Castlevania connection completely I'd have nothing to say about it at all.
I was referring to the demographic that Konami was most concerned with. I never said anything about who actually likes it.
So... SoTN is a dudebro game..? it DID after all, copy Super Metroid, which was incredibly popular and still relatively new at the time.
This is my biggest problem with CV HD. It's ALL rock and it all starts sounding incredibly generic after a while.
So why does LoS get shit for doing the same thing SoTN did to great effect?I think it's because Symphony borrowed Metroid's style but at the same time made it all it's own (the term "metroidvania" doesn't even belong to Metroid anymore. There hasn't been a sprite-based 2D Metroid in ages, the style now belongs to Castlevania since Nintendo refuses to make anymore 2D Metroids. It's almost like calling every 2D platformer that came after Mario Bros. a "Marioformer."); the gothic aesthetic was in tune with Castlevania's general premise & the time period the plot takes place in, so it's commonly seen as the ideal Castlevania. Lords, on the other hand, borrowed other games styles but did a poor attempt to mold it into it's own aesthetic; It seemed more like a hodge-podge of Prince of Persia meets Shadow of the Colossus meets God of War, with the gothic atmosphere present only for a couple of chapters within the 20 chapter game. I believe had they flat-out removed the Agharta levels, or made the "Land of the Lycans" less generic-looking, then people particularly the general CV fanbase that are against LoS would've had a much better time accepting the game.
I still maintain that they could have done a reboot that was more true to the spirit of Castlevania without having to completely rewrite everything and without the Hollywood hard-on since the whole "forget everything you know about Castlevania" schtick since the new people they were trying to attract likely don't know a damn thing about the old canon anyway.What some people tend to forget is, that MercurySteam's original pitch indeed WAS in tune with the spirit of Castlevania, or so it seemed. Their original intent was to reboot the franchise by remaking CV1, albeit with several changes & modifications of course. That's what Cox/MS wanted to do, until Konami/Kojima stepped in & told them to "change it up."
I was going to reference this in my post but you beat me to it. And I agree. SoTN borrowed HEAVILY from other games, and it's considered a masterpiece (it's an above average game to be sure, but masterpiece? HArdly.) So why does LoS get shit for doing the same thing SoTN did to great effect?
I don't entirely think the cinematic approach to the soundtrack was a bad thing, though. I just think that the execution wasn't done as well as it could/should have been; because Lords really is a cinematic game, with an equally cinematic soundtrack. It just didn't have as much effort put into timing and placement as it did, say, graphics (not that I'm complaining on that note).
And the cinematic formula can work when juxtaposed correctly. Like the God of War series, for instance. Particularly the most recent two games of the series are amazingly cinematic both in musical score and visual composition; but it was done right. There's never a driving melody when there's no enemy hordes or hazardous platforming, and the cutoffs from action to exploration are clean and flowing. It's just the proof for how wonderful the cinematic approach is, when done correctly. That's why it typically annoys me when someone gives Lords' soundtrack shit for being cinematic (this isn't directed at uzo or anyone here in particular, but more at the bandwagoners who say it and can't back it up, and there's a ton of LoS-hate bandwagoners).
So... SoTN is a dudebro game..? it DID after all, copy Super Metroid, which was incredibly popular and still relatively new at the time.
What some people tend to forget is, that MercurySteam's original pitch indeed WAS in tune with the spirit of Castlevania, or so it seemed. Their original intent was to reboot the franchise by remaking CV1, albeit with several changes & modifications of course. That's what Cox/MS wanted to do, until Konami/Kojima stepped in & told them to "change it up."
Castlevania Lords of Shadow Simon Belmont Beta Footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR2bb2OfdbY#ws)
The comment taht "the music was effeminate" came from KONAMI itself, Araujo said he wanted to do it old school but Konami said they felt it was effeminate. Mercury takes a lot of bashing, and if anything the guilty is Dave Cox (the voice of konami), Mercury is kinda like Ninja Theory, that absorbed all the backslash of the "emo Dante" after they pitched a traditional Dante to Capcom and they told them to keep him as far from that as possible.
Castlevania Lords of Shadow Simon Belmont Beta Footage
The comment taht "the music was effeminate" came from KONAMI itself, Araujo said he wanted to do it old school but Konami said they felt it was effeminate. Mercury takes a lot of bashing, and if anything the guilty is Dave Cox (the voice of konami), Mercury is kinda like Ninja Theory, that absorbed all the backslash of the "emo Dante" after they pitched a traditional Dante to Capcom and they told them to keep him as far from that as possible.
I'm glad this Simon never made it. All I'm seeing in this beta footage is a copy & past of Assassin's Creed.
3/10
Try harder next time.
Some felt even more discomfort that the series has suddenly been rebooted entirely and just dropped it's 20 plus year legacy in favor of a generic AAA blockbuster hack n slash to cash in on God of War developed by a western developer who's last game was objectively shit (even I hated it).
Tell me how filling a game with classical style music fits with trying to make a game appeal to a dudebro audience?Well, that's the core of the problem. I never used the dudebro label, but if the intention of Konami was that, that's the problem, nothing good was going to come out about the soundtrack.
The comment taht "the music was effeminate" came from KONAMI itself, Araujo said he wanted to do it old school but Konami said they felt it was effeminate. Mercury takes a lot of bashing, and if anything the guilty is Dave Cox (the voice of konami), Mercury is kinda like Ninja Theory, that absorbed all the backslash of the "emo Dante" after they pitched a traditional Dante to Capcom and they told them to keep him as far from that as possible.I've always known that not only MS was to blame. The main guilty is Konami because they gave away the franchise in the first place. MS, if anything, did what they wanted to do, like any fan who makes a fangame and give the game its unique vision.
So... SoTN is a dudebro game..? it DID after all, copy Super Metroid, which was incredibly popular and still relatively new at the time.The difference is that Super Metroid was a hell of an excellent game, and it copied the system but retained the look and music of Castlevania, things that here are completely absent, ESPECIALLY THE MUSIC.
This is my biggest problem with CV HD. It's ALL rock and it all starts sounding incredibly generic after a while.
Everything is about the composition. You can use any instruments but still be neoclassical.
The problem is Araujo, not if they use orchestra or rock instruments.
And what makes an opinion "valid" or not is just a matter of perspective. I've read a lot of valid complaints about the soundtrack on this thread.
The difference is that Super Metroid was a hell of an excellent game, and it copied the system but retained the look and music of Castlevania, things that here are completely absent, ESPECIALLY THE MUSIC.
there's the same structure and essence of every CV soundtrack.
I dunno, Yuzo Koshiro of all people said that there is no difference in limitations between composing using chiptunes or with live-action instruments. It's all about imagination and what you're willing to do. There have been bland chiptune music before as well as melodic 'real' music. If Araujo did the soundtrack using a chiptune it still would've been bland.
Embrace your inner dudebro, you know it to be true!
When I think of music for a gothic game that's trying to appeal to "dudebros" I think of upbeat music with thumping electric guitar and solos. We heard a lot of this in the IGA games and even some in Rondo of Blood.
LOS has an orchestral and sometimes very delicate score. Tell me how filling a game with classical style music fits with trying to make a game appeal to a dudebro audience? They did a great job with the score of this game, and they did it without cheep hooks and cheesy guitar rock genre crossovers. They did what was right for the game.
I'd love to see Yuzo do an entire CV ost himself. His contributions to the PoR OST were the highlights of it imo. I agree that melody isn't necessarily Araujo's strongest suit (I think his arrangements and orchestrations are fantastic though!) but the OST has a lot of really beautiful music on it.
Curse of Darkness was one of the least Castlevania like games I've ever playedI agree, but it did have it's redeeming qualities here & there (Dracula battle, Dracula's voice actor, Trevor Belmont, the cutscenes were generally better than Lament's, St. Germain's unique personality, weapon forging, etc.)
and in my opinion it is one of the worst 3d Vanias out there.Yeah, many feel it was actually a step backwards from Lament. Stages were way too long, Hector runs way too slow, however I feel had they included A LOT more [well-placed] platforming with hazards, especially in Dracula's Castle, then the game wouldn't be hated on as much as it is. Even some easter eggs would've helped everyone's outlook on the game (a scene depicting Alucard's tomb, a cameo by Grant, etc.)
I thought the music in COD was also mediocre, like the rest of the game.Now this I respectfully & strongly disagree with. I thought the soundtrack was excellent, here are a few of my favorites:
It's also another example of IGA ripping off ideas from other games. But apparently when IGA does it, it's ok.I don't really understand this statement. What exactly did he rip off, and who here gives him the OK? He's been hated on ever since Harmony of Dissonance, continues to be hated on even to this day, and he's ALWAYS had more haters than supporters. The only game I can see he "ripped off" from was Nanobreaker (an equally shitty game), since him & his team basically admitted to using that game's code & resources and remade it into CoD. I've seen some people say "Devil Forging is a ripoff of Pokemon!!" but that's just a downright silly argument to make, and makes the debater sound childish.
That's pretty fair, Kingshango. I'll agree with you on that. Although,
I'm confused here. What are you referring to, Ascension?
It's also another example of IGA ripping off ideas from other games. But apparently when IGA does it, it's ok.
By now, there have been enough games developed, that any one idea is usually derived from, inspired by, or outright taken from, another idea. By this logic everything is related or, in a worst outlook, 'ripped off' of something else. It is true no matter what genre of gaming you look to. The truly 'new' ideas are brought up by new ways of play (Wii Controls, Kinect, touch screen, tablet gaming, dance pads), creating new sparks of ideas.I think his criticism comes more from the fact that it seems like anything pre-LoS taking inspiration or copying ideas tends to be given a pass, while LoS gets the "GoW clone" slander thrown around all the time.
I think his criticism comes more from the fact that it seems like anything pre-LoS taking inspiration or copying ideas tends to be given a pass, while LoS gets the "GoW clone" slander thrown around all the time.
And one of my favorite replies I remember reading for irony sake:Oh god.
"Konami should take Castlevania away from IGA and give it to the God of War team. Enough of this Metroidvania bullshit."
Could this be the next new Castlevania or just a new project that is probably going to be very much like a GOW clone?
This has ALL SORTS of CV feel to it, though it's a unique title. It's like Namco releasing a game about a yellow rotund character who is chased by ghosts and eats pellets, but saying it has nothing to do with the Pac series. It's very conflicting, especially cause we see the character kneeling before the cross, and his blazing whip is SOOOO Belmont-ish. The giant could be just yet another Ogre type(didn't care for them making ogres like one-eyed). Or, yeah, it could be like Balore. But yeah, strong CV feel from a Konami game that's NOT CV! Strange. The dude even LOOKED like he could've fit in as a Belmont just with his facial features!! :o
Also it's too manly and FUCK YEAH looking to be a modern CV.
I don't know why it's not called Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, but it's got to be a CV game. The imagery has Iga written all over it and why would Konami make a whip-weilding, cross-bearing, monster-slaying game that is not a CV game???
this is a test game to prepare for the next 3-D Castlevania.
either that or the title is a placeholder for an actual CV game.
Like I said it's possibly an experiment at bringing Castlevania onto the new systems.
Maybe IGA's not heading this, but Konami could have outsourced to a different team to see what happens with their idea for such a project.
(I doubt Konami is happy with IGA's repertoire with 3D)
God, now a CANDLE on the main page with some BAT silouhettes?
This is starting to reek of CV reference.
But I must not get ahead of myself...
why do i get the feeling that this is yet another alternate origins game and that Gabriel becomes Dracula? (gosh i hope not)
Really, what this all comes down to is the, "What is Castlevania to you?" philosophical crap that was going on on a daily basis here once the CV label on LoS was revealed. Personally, I don't see drastic differences between LoS (music or gameplay) and earlier titles in the series. You and other folks on here do. It's all opinion. It's one thing if you don't like it, but to claim that the OST "factually" doesn't fit is a logical fallacy.No it is not about what is Castlevania to me. It is a fact.
Konami was trying to breathe new life into a series that had been flagging for years, and while you may not like the outcome of that, it gave CV a higher profile as a current game than people paying lip service to how much they loved SoTN or CV1 in the press. Which means that we're likely going to see more CV games once MS is done. So LoS might be the gateway to you actually getting CV games you like now that it's been shown that CV can actually make money.Perhaps, but if the games I will see will have this kind of music, to me it is the same as if CV would have suffered the fate of Megaman. Or even worse.
The emphasis on exploration over action and platforming was definitely NOT what the series was about. Plus we were playing a non-Belmont character that had ridiculous powers as opposed to a Belmont with many limitations. In a lot of ways, SoTN was an even greater departure than you claim LoS is. I remember when it came out, and I was a CV fan for many years before it did and I remember playing it for the first time and scratching my head as to why they called it Castlevania.The look and music is what the series was about, and that didn't change with SotN.
Is it really necessary to have EVERY game be EXACTLY the same? As much as i love many of these games, if they were all the same, I'd have stopped playing them a long time ago. LoS was a breath of fresh air just like SoTN was. And they all brought different elements to the table that wound up staying.Yes it is, at least for me.
I think his criticism comes more from the fact that it seems like anything pre-LoS taking inspiration or copying ideas tends to be given a pass, while LoS gets the "GoW clone" slander thrown around all the time.I don't have so much problem with the GoW thing if the music sounded like any other CV soundtrack or at least would have retained the identity.
Just for the record I want to say, as I already have said many times, I am a fan of IGA.I am too a fan of Iga, since MetroidVania is my favourite thing in the world, but I don't say everything Iga did was perfect. I didn't like DoS very much, and I find Judgment and CV HD like mediocre products saved by the music and look. But I have PoR, CoD, AoS, OoE and SotN among my all-time favourites, together with Rondo of Blood, Legacy of Darkness and Simon's Quest.
I've said that many times on here now. SOTN, LOI and DOS, or all in my top favorite CV games. I think all of these games were masterpieces. I've been saying this for a while. However, there were a lot of things he did that were not my cup of tea.
I've also said many times that LOS is not a perfect game. I did not care for MOF at all, and I've said that too. But LOS is also in my top favorites.
So I just want to clear the air here and let people know that I am a fan of both developers and I actually like their good games equally. The only reason things may seem weighted in my comments is because IGA has produced 10 times the amount of work MS has. And while IGA produced many games that I cherish, he also happened to release a lot of other CV games that I didn't care for.
I just want to say that to explain myself.
I am so happy that my opinion has pretty much remained the same.
I may not enjoy the music from LoS (and am rather bored with MoF), but I actually played them more than LoI and CoD, which I still don't like (even if their music is better IMO).
I wonder if I can summon A N T R A X X back.
Just for the record, I personally never disliked LoS because it took elements from other series, and a lot of other people don't either. "All haters dislike LoS only because it rips off GoW" is greatly oversimplifying the issue. Any supposed double standard upheld by people on this forum or the fanbase in general is just an exaggeration. Making accusations like that is very offensive.
I don't really understand this statement. What exactly did he rip off, and who here gives him the OK? He's been hated on ever since Harmony of Dissonance, continues to be hated on even to this day, and he's ALWAYS had more haters than supporters. The only game I can see he "ripped off" from was Nanobreaker (an equally shitty game), since him & his team basically admitted to using that game's code & resources and remade it into CoD. I've seen some people say "Devil Forging is a ripoff of Pokemon!!" but that's just a downright silly argument to make, and makes the debater sound childish.
Pfil. Don't try to bend musical theory to support your opinion. You're not the only one here who has taken music theory classes.Then you must understand. I'm not supporting my opinion, I am stating facts. Chords is where almost all the base for emotion resides. Without the right chord progressions, everything else is pretty much useless.
You should know that music theory is not an absolute law on the relationship between the music and listner. It is a collection of proven concepts that work to achieve certain musical goals. It does not disprove the effectiveness of music that does not follow it's guidelines and mechanics. This is one of the first things my professor told me about it. I took one class in college.I'd like to continue this, believe me, I'm trying to express myself without coming out as a pedantic person, because I don't like that kind of people, I like to keep myself humble.
You have made very detailed observations about what you don't like abou the score. I'm not sure how much training you have had but I have met people before who took way too much theory and could no longer listen to music without over anylizing it and in the process, missing the meaning and intent of the artist. Music is an art after all, and there are no facts in art, there are opinions and that is all there ever can be.
I would love to dive further into this with you because I actually enjoy debating music theory, but I can't continue if you're going in to this with the idea that your opinions are facts about artistic aesthetics. You must consider that if this were really true, I couldn't be here telling you that i enjoyed the score of LOS. no one could, because it would be impossible to enjoy. There was a user here named The Great Reviewer who felt that way, and he was impossible to reason with.
Just to clarify, I'm only referring to the LOS soundtrack. Mirror of Fate disappointed me in nearly every department.
I for one think the LoS score is not supposed to reflect the /game/ but Gabriel's feelings, and it's in my opinion very melancholic. I feel it.Apart from not being Castlevania, I personally didn't feel nothing from it.
Just to clarify, I'm only referring to the LOS soundtrack. Mirror of Fate disappointed me in nearly every department.I found it to be a step in the right direction from MS when comparing to LoS, with the exception of gameplay, but the music remained the same to me.
I for one think the LoS score is not supposed to reflect the /game/ but Gabriel's feelings, and it's in my opinion very melancholic. I feel it.
Dear Pfil:It's OK. I don't think one of the film music critics would know what Castlevania music has been like for 25 years, they just like film music, which is what LoS's score is.
This argument will lead us until the end of time, sadly. Feels come differently for different people, and hey, the score won the only VG music award that is worth a damn that ir's given by, not only musicians, but important composers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Film_Music_Critics_Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Film_Music_Critics_Association)) demeriting the score because chord progressions or whatever, is a little tiring and futile, it's damn recognized great music (not even good, great).
I know you held the series very dear and you have some personal notions of what it is and should be (In my opinion very IGA centered and not really castlevania centered, which is sad) and then, well, nothing to do, if it doesn't do anything to you, that's sad, and if it's not Castlevania for you (and other people of course) ok that's sad, but hey, many other people are just fine with it, and enjoy it for what it is. No need to demerit and piss over other people party.
Ok Pfil. I think I see what you meant now. It must have been an English thing. All I can say is hopefully LOS2 will be more appealing to you.Thanks. I don't think so, but my hopes are on 2014, these eternal years with only a handful of Pachislot and CV HD tracks as new CV music to listen to are coming to en end finally.
I'm so sick right now I can barely think. Have a nice night everyone!
Dear Pfil:
This argument will lead us until the end of time, sadly. Feels come differently for different people, and hey, the score won the only VG music award that is worth a damn that ir's given by, not only musicians, but important composers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Film_Music_Critics_Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Film_Music_Critics_Association)) demeriting the score because chord progressions or whatever, is a little tiring and futile, it's damn recognized great music (not even good, great).
I know you held the series very dear and you have some personal notions of what it is and should be (In my opinion very IGA centered and not really castlevania centered, which is sad) and then, well, nothing to do, if it doesn't do anything to you, that's sad, and if it's not Castlevania for you (and other people of course) ok that's sad, but hey, many other people are just fine with it, and enjoy it for what it is. No need to demerit and piss over other people party.
Whaaaaattt??? :P
When I first played SOTN it felt as foreign to me as LOS did
I've heard this statement from several different fans before over the years, but the difference from what they said & what you've said, is that those people claim Symphony was more of a departure from Castlevania than LoS is. What I don't understand is, how exactly did Symphony feel alien to the series as much if not more than LoS? When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc. Even Trevor's 8-bit sprite makes a cameo. The only thing that was really "foreign" was the map progression & RPG elements, and even that arguably had it's roots from Simon's Quest.
I guess I can kinda understand how one might say only at first SotN seemed foreign to him/her, until playing the game more thoroughly & realizing it's very much in tune with the "spirit" of Castlevania. I suppose that's how some gradually came to accept LoS, since it still retains at least some "Castlevanian" elements (highly debatable on how much, I know), whilst at the same time [admittingly] leaving out a lot of "Castlevanian" elements.
-Emphasis on exploration over action and platformingYes, but many would argue that it's just continuing what CVII started
Main character using a sword rather than a whip and being a non-BelmontYa, but it wasn't like it was out of left field or anything. Your first time playing Symphony you automatically know you're playing as Belmont, albeit shortly after explaining why you must switch to Dracula's own son, etc.
Pfil it sounds to me like you just typed that unless a piece of music has a certain chord progression, then you don't like it and it's not "appropriate." I just want to clarify this.I like certain chord progressions, but that's not what I said.
I have a music degree, have studied many kinds of music (including classical extensively) and I can tell you that it's about how the melodies are harmonized and arranged. You're not wrong when you talk about chord progressions, but the progressions are dictated by the melodies above them. I could write a piece with that chord progression you mentioned (which, as far as I can tell has only been used, or something close to it, in a couple CV pieces that I can think of) and it could be completely out of character.I too have a music degree and have studied many kinds of music including classical (in fact, the whole career was based mainly on classical), and I also understand about harmony and arranging, and the melodies, the harmonies and the arrangements in LoS are also miles away from every melody, harmony and arrangement I've heard in Castlevania.
If you dislike the LoS OST as much as you say, I'd doubt you've gone through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure there aren't any "major tonics in a minor key theme followed by a 4th grade" (a major tonic in a minor key is just a III chord.) If anything, a lot of it is hard to hear in-game, and it was only when I listened to the OST by itself that I really discovered how beautiful it was. Some of Araujo's pieces DO follow classical form and progressions, but they owe more to modern classical music. If you don't like Araujo's style that's one thing, but to use theory to prove that the music is "factually wrong" is BS. Stop.No, major tonic in a minor key is not a 3rd grade, though I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing because in spanish names could be different for the same thing.
It sounds to me like you want everything in a minor key (boring and loses effectiveness if EVERY piece is minor) and centered around a i-V-i type of vibe. But what about a piece like the Library theme in Castlevania 4 that doesn't use those progressions, is in major key? It's the character of the piece that makes it work. It's a great piece, but it's nothing like what you're talking about. Or how about 'Rainbow Cave' from SoTN that uses more of a club music feel that really wasn't a part of Castlevania until then. One could say that was out of character, but now it's the norm. And I don't think you could argue that there's anything "classical" or "baroque" about any of the soundtracks in the first several CV games, at least not until CV4. I think your definitions of what's "appropriate" or not are pretty narrow.Yeah, those are "the other" tracks from CV, also very different from LoS. If with I-V-I you are referring to the grades, then yes, CV needs to have that Beethoven and Bach vibe, and yes, it needs to be mostly in minor key, but that doesn't mean every chord should be minor, something Araujo fails to understand because he is always using the minor dominant instead of the major dominant, never giving full closure to the ideas previously displayed. While in other occasions he directly "resets" the progression and starts over. And no melody can resist that. Not to mention that the "subtle" melodies from LoS are so subtle that they are almost non existant.
I'm going to guess that you haven't been a fan of the series for terribly long. I have, since Simon's Quest actually. And I'm thankful that they didn't decide to make every game the same thing. Because as much as I love, especially the classic games, I don't want every game to be the exact same thing. That's how MegaMan ended up where it is today. You can play the Castleroid games as much as you want to. They'll exist forever if you want to play them. The new things, the different things, are what make the series interesting. If you don't like them, you can always play the games you DO like.No, you guess wrong. I couldn't have been a fan since Simon's Quest because I wasn't even born when that game came out, but I wasn't even a teenager when SotN caught me, and since that moment, CV has been the most important thing amongst all my hobbies, and one of the most important things in my life. It defined my tastes in pretty much everything. Now, 16 years have passed, and I have played several times every Castlevania game available, listened hundreds (if not thousands) of times to every soundtrack, and it's not to presume myself of being the big thing, but I doubt there are a lot of CV fans which breathe and live CV every day like I do.
No, you guess wrong. I couldn't have been a fan since Simon's Quest because I wasn't even born when that game came out, but I wasn't even a teenager when SotN caught me, and since that moment, CV has been the most important thing amongst all my hobbies, and one of the most important things in my life.
And it's not about the difficulty, it's about the complete feeling of having a huge map and progressing by percentage. Circle of the Moon and Order of Ecclesia are proofs that MetroidVania and difficulty can co-exist.
Even Rondo of Blood is proof that there's some middle ground between both CV sub-genres.
To me, the implementation of RPG elements and the emphasis on exploration were just adding more great stuff to something which was already great.
I wasn't talking about the difficulty, I was talking about the state of mind of the player. SOTN requires you to manage many items even down to what hand is holding what. There are 100's of things to think about that the player never had to up until that point. It changed the entire genre of the series. Rondo of Blood is merely a Classicvania with a stage select option. Alternate routes and multiple characters debuted in 3. And the map stage select system debuted in Belmont's Revenge. In fact you almost had less to worry about in Rondo of Blood because there was no whip upgrading. In that way it was even further in the action genre. I consider it to be nothing close to what SOTN is as far as what type of game it is. The only thing it really has in common is some of the artwork.Indeed, it was my first experience, but it catched me completely because it contained everything I loved: vampires, anime look, gothic and ancient environments, aristocratic old costumes, music based on classicism and baroque periods with a touch of modern music.
If SOTN was your first CV experience, how could it have felt that way to you? You would of had to play the other games first in order to feel something was being added.
To me, and some other people who loved the original formula, these implementations took the focus away from what we loved about the game.
Montoya felt with SOTN the same you feel with LoS, it happens all the time. He wants classicvania back too. That's just the way it is, things go, things come, and the same way there was an Adventure Rebirth, who says there won't be a metroidvania in the future? We just have to wait :)I also want ClassicVanias back. But back for good. As well as MetroidVanias. I want Konami to alternate CV, MV and 3DV. It is very sad to think that maybe we will see 1 or 2 games in the distant future like MegaMan 9 and 10, and nothing more, an apart from that, just emptiness and despair.
My first Castlevania was Aria. Obviously the story and art design drew me in, as well as the thick baroque gothic atmosphere. That said, there is a certain nostalgia and fondness for Classicvanias. I love em to death. particularly Bloodlines. It's so damn vibrant and colorful. (and some of the effects are real damn good, like the reflection on the water)Yes, I don't care if the Genesis is the least technically powerful home console a Castlevania was made for. Bloodlines is one all-time favourite for me. The atmosphere, the general look of ancient european landscapes, the soundtrack... I love Bloodlines as a ClassicVania the same way I love Portrait of Ruin as a MetroidVania, and that shouldn't be surprising since PoR is a sequel to Bloodlines.
I've heard this statement from several different fans before over the years, but the difference from what they said & what you've said, is that those people claim Symphony was more of a departure from Castlevania than LoS is. What I don't understand is, how exactly did Symphony feel alien to the series as much if not more than LoS? When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc. Even Trevor's 8-bit sprite makes a cameo. The only thing that was really "foreign" was the map progression & RPG elements, and even that arguably had it's roots from Simon's Quest.
I guess I can kinda understand how one might say only at first SotN seemed foreign to him/her, until playing the game more thoroughly & realizing it's very much in tune with the "spirit" of Castlevania. I suppose that's how some gradually came to accept LoS, since it still retains at least some "Castlevanian" elements (highly debatable on how much, I know), whilst at the same time [admittingly] leaving out a lot of "Castlevanian" elements.
-Emphasis on exploration over action and platforming
-Main character using a sword rather than a whip and being a non-Belmont
-RPG elements
Those were the big ones for me. The last CV game I'd played before SoTN was Bloodlines, and there's a world of difference between those two games. Even with the spirit and such, it's still a very different game from what came before.
I loved how gory and raw Bloodlines was. It almost reminded me of Splatterhouse.
What was really different for me was my state of mind while playing a game like Bloodlines Vs SOTN.
When I play a game like Bloodlines I am playing a game of mostly instinct and memory. This, to me is what Castlevania was about.
When I played SOTN and the Metriodvanias, I had so many more things to think about other than the action. I had to think "do I have the right item equipped"?, "How do I get past this door?", and thoughts like "I think I need to be a higher level to survive this". And not to be forgotten, the oh so present "Am I going the right direction".
I didn't like having to think about all of that extra stuff. It took the animalistic feeling of playing Castlevania away from me. This was the BIG difference. It made me use my brain in a whole different way. And it took that away from me in the one place I went to escape that kind of thinking, my favorite video game.
There were other games that already filled this void to me, like Zelda and Metriod. This is what bothered me, because Castlevania was the only game that gave me that other sort of experience, and it was no longer doing that. There are plenty of ways to achieve that kind of gameplay, but when too many RPG elements are implemented, the experience 180's into something completely different.
I got used to it and learned to enjoy the game. But from that point on, new Castlevanias were rarely the game that I fell in love with when I was 6 years old.
LOS felt a little more action based to me, but not as much as I would have hoped.
When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc.
When playing Symphony for the first time, it's literally impossible for veterans of the series to not recognize the first stage "Bloodlines" by saying, "hey, this is from CV1!" Many more aspects from the classics were present, from the castle entrance, hearts/candles, etc.
Vampire Killer would like a word with you. It did exploration and multiple kinds of weapons from year one of the series. Even before CV2.
I don't entirely agree about emphasizing exploration OVER action and platforming. SotN had plenty of both. The only thing they did to nerf platforming was getting rid of death pits. I would have preferred if they had kept them, but I can also imagine people bitching about having them, too. And if anything, the action is more intense than any of the previous titles up until you level up. And THAT is where they fucked up the Metroid formula and the action.
Simon in 2 versions of CV1 uses main weapons other than the Vampire Killer. The Vampire Killer wasn't even part of the story until CV3. And speaking of CV3, let's not forget that as early as stage 3 you don't even have to play the rest of the game as Trevor. The difference in SotN is that you aren't given the option to switch back after you start playing as Alucard.
I did find the RPG elements a little odd at first, but even that does have roots in CV2 as Crisis mentioned.
The RPG elements were heavy in Symphony compared to Simon's Quest. You leveled up in SQ twice at the most and the experience system barely plays a role.
you go higher then that. I leveled up Simon a total of six times (and I'm sure you can get even more), however I had sacrificed a lot of time just to do that and didn't get the best ending.
I'm not really shitting on Symphony, but there are things about it that weren't really terribly "castlevania-like" at the time.
I think I basically leveled up until you don't get any experience anymore, and I thought it was only twice, but you may be right on this one, cuz I can't for the life of me remember.
This is how it's done essentially: In different areas of the game you can level up. The easiest way to tell that you are in a new area is by looking at the different colored skeletons. Level up in the first area (the one with the light blue skeletons), then once you've succeeded, move onto the next area (with the grey skeletons), so-on and so-fourth. You can only level up once per area so this is about the only way you can do this. Unless you go to a different area first (say with the grey skeletons) then you can earn two level ups. I could be mistaken on this as I can't remember if I did it once just to see what the result would be.
I honestly didn't even think about Vampire Killer. I've never even made it thru that one, so I can't really say for sure. But the exploration/platforming/action was a lot more balanced out in Simon's Quest. In SoTN it really WAS more about exploring and find the items you need to get to the next section.
The RPG elements were heavy in Symphony compared to Simon's Quest. You leveled up in SQ twice at the most and the experience system barely plays a role. In SoTN, having to equip items and having to worry about leveling up to increase your HP and stats so you can beat bosses/enemies is a big part of the game. If you don't pay attention to those RPG elements, you won't get thru the game. And once you get to the right level and get the right weapons, the enemies are little more than road blocks. The RPG elements are pretty dictatorial in Symphony whereas they were all but nonexistent in the classic games even when they were there.
The platforming is pretty nerfed in Symphony. Taking out death pits removes most of the risk, and most of the time, it's merely an obstacle. The enemy placement doesn't make it any more difficult really, because Alucard has so many abilities he can use to overcome it. Platforming in Symphony is, in a lot of cases, kind of like those crank wheels in LoS, just an obstacle that's there to make for some busywork. There's really little challenge to it and as such it defeats the purpose of having it in a way. In the classic games, the platforming was tightly designed. Enemies were placed to make it even more challenging, but that doesn't really occur in SoTN.
As far as the "helper spirits" in CV3 are concerned, they're not as good overall as Trevor is. Sure, you don't HAVE to play as Trevor, but he's the best overall character, so why WOULDN'T you use him? That's kind of a weak argument to make, especially as Trevor is the focus of the game in the first place.
I'm not really shitting on Symphony, but there are things about it that weren't really terribly "castlevania-like" at the time.
IMO the exploration/action balance in VK is far better than either SQ or SotN. The only real difference I see between SQ & SotN is the inclusion of death pits and assload of reading. All you're really doing in SQ is exploring to get the items you need to get to the next section.
Leveling affects both your HP and the amount of damage you take from enemies.
It actually does play a very big role in SQ too. You just don't usually notice it. Play the latest SQ retranslation patch. Get to the end of the game and switch back to the leather whip. The Skeletons near the ruins of Castlevania take like 8 or more hits to kill even at level 6.
The problem with SotN is that the RPG elements weren't handled well, not the elements themselves.
I agree about the way the platforming was nerfed, but I totally disagree about the enemy placement. Enemy placement is the only element that gives you any challenge at all before you level up or find abilities. Before that their placement is actually pretty well thought out for the most part. Before you level up or get way better equipment the enemies are anything but busy work. Certainly they are far more interesting than a crank wheel at least for a time. In the classic games (except SQ) the platforming and the enemy placement are parts of a whole. Take away either one and you have a problem. It's the opposite in SQ. The enemy placement is atrocious and only the platforming is a challenge and not in a good way because the level design is pretty bad too. The problem with SotN isn't enemy placement, it's the fact that the player is free to level grind to the point that they become moot.
That wasn't my main point anyway. And, by your own logic, you've nullified your problem with SotN not having a Belmont as the main character because a Belmont wasn't the focus of the game. Hell, SotN is practically a gaiden. And when I say practically I mean that for all intents and purposes it is a side story to RoB. When I started considering it as such I accepted it a lot more easily. Believe me when I first read that you weren't playing as a Belmont my gut reaction was WTF!?
The amount of hits an enemy takes with the Leather Whip is because the Leather Whip is the weakest whip in the game. It has nothing to do with your level as far as I know (enemies get stronger the closer to Dracula's Castle they appear, which as far as I know, has nothing to do with what level you're at.) Leveling up only gives you a longer energy bar, it doesn't affect anything other than that afaik.
In SoTN, regardless of what level you're at, there are only a couple spots (mainly the Clock Tower) where enemy placement makes platforming more difficult. You're never in danger of being knocked into a pit and there really aren't many situations where you're put in a bad situation because of platforming and enemy placement as a combination. Even Simon's Quest has parts where enemy placement makes platforming difficult (granted not many, but more than SoTN) and even with all the weapons, Simon isn't nearly as overpowered as Alucard is, especially compared to the enemies.
I really think SoTN is the most fun when played in Luck Mode. The last several times I've played it, I've done that, and purposely gone for lower stats when fighting the first battle. It makes the game challenging for a longer stretch and a lot more fun and interesting imo.
I guess. My point was that up until then, EVERY main character (even if there were side characters) WAS a Belmont. SoTN was quite a departure in that sense. You can't really argue that.
He said that because you mentioned equips in SOTN, he gave a totally valid example that SOTN equips system isn't broken, its only done wrong. (we have broken items, but its another story)
I think thats why he said that enemy placement isnt the problem, almost inexistent platforming was. If platforming is inexistent, enemy placement wont make it more difficult since it doesnt exist. The only place that is near from that and IS challenging for a begginer is the falling bridge without Bat Form. But talking about enemy placement as a stand-alone thing, yes, it was challenging for me at the beggining, I died a lot of times when I was younger.
OBJECTION!
"Akumajō Special: Boku Dracula-kun" is a gaiden Castlevania game, even if they didnt localized it to US as one, the original sources doesnt lie, look at the title :P
P.S.: Doesnt take it personally, when I see a interesting debate I instantly jump on it, so take it easy :)
Bloodlines came out before SotN and doesn't have any Belmonts, just sayin'.
Bloodlines came out before SotN and doesn't have any Belmonts, just sayin'.
Maybe it just comes down to semantics, but technically it doesn't have a Belmont, just Belmont descendents. If you generalize and include descendents that wield the Vampire Killer, then it sorta does have a Belmont, but not really since simply holding the whip is slowly killing John like it would anyone else not of the clan.
Because I don't think the series needs another Metriodvania right now. And have doubts about that being what the majority of the fans really want.
I want a 2 or 2.5D action oriented Castlevania with as many or more abilities as Simon has in CV4. I want this with a new style if graphics and I want it on a home console.
Castlevania adventure rebirth missed the mark for me. I didn't like the level designs or the bosses. Something about it was just off big time.
Hey man, it happened for Contra. Hardcore Uprising, and that wasn't that long ago. Don't kill my dreams.
Hey man, it happened for Contra. Hardcore Uprising, and that wasn't that long ago. Don't kill my dreams.
Are you deliberately trying to be thick? Pretend that the storyline and all that junk doesn't exist for a second. I'm talking about a whip wielding character that plays similar to Simon, regardless of what his name is. I think this is the point where I bow out. :P
We haven't seen a new 2D Castlevania game for a home console, since SoTN and if again the rumors about a new Castlevania on the makings it's true, the same rumor states that it will be for a handheld console. So it's Konami and not me that's killing your dreams and my dreams.
Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth came out in 2009 I believe. Wii is a console.
You certainly do have a limited knowledge of such things I hope you won't take offense if I bring you up to speed a little
since Contra shattered soldier (2002) we've had:
Odin Sphere - PS2 - 2007
Warioland shake it! - Wii 2009
A boy and his blob - Wii 2009
Muramasa: the demon blade - Wii 2009
Batman the Brave and the bold - Wii 2010
Kirby's return to Dreamland - Wii 2011
Donkey Kong Country Returns - Wii 2010
Rayman origins - Wii/Xbox 360/PS3 2011
& I'm sure I've probably missed a few more
I bet like 90% of CV fans in the world would buy it. It would just take a little research from Konami to know that.
Most likely 50%. Some fans might have been converted into 3D lovers. Others might have given up gaming. Oh and we have to consider some fans in the developing countries that do not have the money nor the console to pay for the game.
Research needs money to be shelled out too.
Or brains.
I think 2D tends to be a tough sell in an era of big expansive 3D games. It's one thing to have 2D fighting games, but that community is a niche in and of itself. Still, if a 2D Castlevania had 3D production values, I imagine it could sell okay, but these days it seems like everything's either a blockbuster or a it's a failure in the eyes of the bean counters/suits at the companies.
I imagine it could sell okay, but these days it seems like everything's either a blockbuster or a it's a failure in the eyes of the bean counters/suits at the companies.Man I hate that. It seems since 2008 a game needs to sell 1 million copies or else it's an utter failure. The same desire to have constant blockbusters is why we have so many bland sequels and brown military shooters. Same thing is happening to the film industry.
Man I hate that. It seems since 2008 a game needs to sell 1 million copies or else it's an utter failure. The same desire to have constant blockbusters is why we have so many bland sequels and brown military shooters. Same thing is happening to the film industry.
THANKS A LOT OBAMA
The film industry suffers from the piracy that is rampant in China. A lot of pirated films end up in torrent sites. This makes hollywood lose money, so they would rather make sequels since these do not need any new creation and they would just use the existing assets to make a film.
Aside from that, it also seems that movie goers nowadays have lost their appetite for original works.
Thus from all sides, it is cheaper to make sequels.
As for the gamingindustry, well it more or less works the same.
Don't forget the game we just mentioned. Hardcore Uprising. Also a 2d game for consoles.
The film industry suffers from the piracy that is rampant in China. A lot of pirated films end up in torrent sites. This makes hollywood lose money, so they would rather make sequels since these do not need any new creation and they would just use the existing assets to make a film.What really annoys me is the fact that films don't have music anymore.
Aside from that, it also seems that movie goers nowadays have lost their appetite for original works.
Thus from all sides, it is cheaper to make sequels.
BTW that gif in your sig weirds me out. Is that Successor? xD
Man I hate that. It seems since 2008 a game needs to sell 1 million copies or else it's an utter failure. The same desire to have constant blockbusters is why we have so many bland sequels and brown military shooters. Same thing is happening to the film industry.
THANKS A LOT OBAMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4tI_n9ftn4&t=2m42s
What really annoys me is the fact that films don't have music anymore.
Everyone have seen me complaining here about LoS' soundtracks, but that is mostly because I consider it generic and boring for being a Castlevania, because I consider CV 1986-2008 the best music ever done. Better than any band, any composer, anything, EVER.
But... and this may come as a surprise for many... Araujo's compositions are in fact better than today's move standards (and with today I mean the last couple years).
Sure, from time to time we have soundtracks like Solomon Kane out (I believe it's from 2010), but almost all films have completely boring "soundtracks". WAY MORE BORING than LoS.
I watched The Wolverine on last weekend. And while the movie was very good, it didn't have music. Really, just pay attention and try to follow or understand what's going on. It's just random chords with no form whatsoever, no melody, nothing. We've always had parts that follow a certain scene that, as music, didn't make much sense. But every soundtrack used to have the main theme from the movie, character themes, and a lot of identifiable melodies.
Remember Pirates of the Caribbean saga? It's not been SO MANY years since that. But movies have completely lost their soundtracks.
What's the theme for The Wolverine movie? It doesn't have a main theme. It doesn't have a proper theme. AT ALL. In all the movie.
And that applies to almost every movie that comes out from Hollywood today (this still doesn't apply to european or korean movies, luckily, I don't know about the rest of the world).
I had to say it, I was very annoyed about the soundtrack and I want to know if anyone feels the same.
...but every game post MGS4 has been given that Hollywood bullshit generic music.Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance Vocal Tracks - Rules of Nature (Platinum Mix) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJXmMyAuSgs#ws)
I'm sorry.
You're absolutely right. I forgot MGR.
MGR's Soundtrack is awesome. So, let me rephrase in saying Peacewalker's soundtrack wasn't good compared to the rest of the series.
Don't forget that Kojima was involved in the first LoS, so maybe he had the idea of going Hollywood for the soundtrack.
I personally find the trailers music so, so irritating.
I don't want to sound arrogant, but for any person with trained ears, that kind of music is nonsense pseudo-symphonic noise.
About Rugal's respect, he's been saying some cool things, and I have the right to give him my respects, if anyone's wondering. I feel he's had some unfair negative votes and I felt like doing it. Please note that every post I up-voted is saying something I already stated elsewhere, or kind of. Mostly about LoS, and mostly about its music, so...
I don't think 15 positive votes is a big deal, to be honest.
I don't think that having trained ears is a good reason to say that a piece is good or bad, but that's just my opinion. If anything, it makes people distrustful of other folks with trained ears.
I don't understand why people keep calling it "Hollywood". It's a soundtrack.
Yes it's different, and it's meant to be.
I hum the LoS soundtrack all time
It's not there to give you catchy hooks that get stuck in your head.
I have music training and have been composing and playing for over 10 years. I think the LOS soundtrack was done very well. It's not there to give you catchy hooks that get stuck in your head. It's music is meant to supplement the game. This type of composing takes a great amount of restraint and I have a lot of respect for it. I don't understand why people keep calling it "Hollywood". It's a soundtrack.And I've listened to some of your works and liked them.
Yes it's different, and it's meant to be.
So you have been upvoting him too? I've upvoted some earlier posts that I found to be fair and polite.Yup :)
All this talk of needing a 'trained ear' or a degree and years of experience to offer an authoritative or more knowledgeable opinion on music being good or bad kind of saddens me.I'm sorry, but I don't have any other way to express it.
Kinuyo Yamashita (Yamako) by her own admission didn't have much experience when she started out:
"Before I worked at Konami, I had very little experience with music. I mean, my parents made me take piano lessons at age 4, but that’s all. I studied electronic engineering in college. So I didn’t really know I could compose music until I started working at Konami."
But her work was inspired and her tunes are timeless within our series. Perhaps there's a case here that, someone with less credentials and experience, is less constrained by convention and accepted parameters of musical theory and technique. Or maybe not. I've been playing and composing guitar for twenty years, but sometimes I do wish I could unlearn some things and get back to an open book. There is always complaceny.
But meantime try picking out a structure in a piece like Vampire Killer . . .
I think we need to adopt a little more respect and modesty. And also accept that we have been terribly spoilt with good tunes and composers for over 25 years.
But current Hollywood productions composers are all musicians with degrees making garbage because they tell them to do so, so it's the complete opposite.
Movies music has been downgraded to its lowest form on recent years.
I don't think those tunes are hummable.
It wouldn't sound, to someone hearing you hum, like anything.
I hum Belmont's theme
I ALWAYS find myself humming Waterfalls of Agharta. I'd make the case that "well it IS a Classicvania Orchestration" but I tend to specifically hum the LoS version. There's something just so soothing about the way it was done. I'd even call it superior to the original. (Plz don't shoot)
I don't think those tunes are hummable.
It wouldn't sound, to someone hearing you hum, like anything.
However, I think what changed, was us... not really the medium.
I'm gonna put this here again, because apparently people didn't notice it the first time I posted it:
Extra Credits: Video Game Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKgHrz_Wv6o#ws)
Except the Van Helsing OST actually has a lot of strong melody.Well, post one music with melody then. I think it would be a better example than one that sounds like almost anything in LoS soundtrack.
Well, I am ignorant of the planning, work, and execution that goes into composing for an orchestra. I cannot imagine it is easy. The guitarist Steve Vai who has done some work with a symphony, has stated:It's fine! :)
"Composing a symphony of 40 minutes or more can take 8 months of 12 hour undisturbed days. This project took a whole year to compose, orchestrate, create the parts and score, rehearse the orchestra and do the performances."
If I said I prefer Yamako's material to Oscar's because of the musical hooks and 'hummability', it would be a disparaging slight in light of the sheer time and work Oscar will have put in. Hence I may myself be 'untrained' in making my comment, and ignorant of his work, but it's still my opinion. I do still think however they are two different beasts and I can appreciate Lords' soundtrack. Belmont's Theme I think is bloody brilliant, and right up there with the best in the series.
And apologies, I'm not picking on you. You're very passionate with this subject, and you're much more knowledgeable on it than I. :)
developers must adapt to us, and not the other way around.Developers have visions too. It's not JUST about what the audience wants, sometimes the developer wants to make their own vision on something. And despite LoS being divisive, it WAS successful, meaning that there WAS an audience for that vision.
Well, post one music with melody then. I think it would be a better example than one that sounds like almost anything in LoS soundtrack.
Incubus, how could you forget about one of the most important songs in Bram Stoker's Dracula;
Bram Stoker's Dracula movie soundtrack "The Storm" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PTpIH4VODs#)
I think this tune would go well with Castlevania.
Developers have visions too. It's not JUST about what the audience wants, sometimes the developer wants to make their own vision on something. And despite LoS being divisive, it WAS successful, meaning that there WAS an audience for that vision.My opinion is that a franchise shouldn't change a lot. If they want to make games with their visions, let them do a new IP or alternative games, not their games be the only games for 6 agonizing never ending years.
I hope that the developers that lurk here see all our opinions. :)I always hope that Araujo would read everything I post.
You are right Lely, as consumers, we vote with our money.
Im not she, but I think that she meant that we are not obligated to accept everything that they send at us with a smile. They need to hear our feedbacks more often and adapt if necessary or otherwise people will stop being blind fans (not everyone, Im talking about these really fanatic that buy even the worst and plan to continue buying until they bankrupt, even if these games are bad) and boycott their games until they get better.Yes, I meant that. Of course I won't be accepting anything with a smile. When the Castlevania name is there, I will be accepting just 2 things with a smile: a ClassicVania with traditional CV music or a MetroidVania with traditional CV music. Everything else is just that: something else.
My opinion is that a franchise shouldn't change a lot.Sometimes evolution is necessary to realize full potential...
Being 100ft, glowing blue, and naked?
I'm not very fond of his music, but I doubt he could be compared to the nonsense to we are subjected with almost every super production coming out from Hollywood.
And I doubt anyone with training based on the classical and baroque periods would like his music in a movie or game.
Just like Schoenberg started a movement, so did Edward Schoener. Listen to his works and tell me if you like it.
Anyway, I wouldn't dare to compare Schoenberg either to, say, Beethoven, Mozart, Bach or Chopin.
Just like I wouldn't compare pop art to, say, a painting from Michael Angelo or Da Vinci.
And pop art is a major art movement too.
Just saying.
About Rugal's respect, he's been saying some cool things, and I have the right to give him my respects, if anyone's wondering. I feel he's had some unfair negative votes and I felt like doing it. Please note that every post I up-voted is saying something I already stated elsewhere, or kind of. Mostly about LoS, and mostly about its music, so...
I don't think 15 positive votes is a big deal, to be honest.
All this talk of needing a 'trained ear' or a degree and years of experience to offer an authoritative or more knowledgeable opinion on music being good or bad kind of saddens me.
Sometimes evolution is necessary to realize full potential...I'd love to quote Noah Antwiler regarding innovation:
I'm not very fond of Mozart, personally either. He is too major mode for my tastes. But there's no denying his talent as a writer of masterpieces. There's plenty of examples, but the Requiem alone is enough.
I'd be overwhelmed by a complete game featuring Schoenberg's compositions, but I loved, for example, Eternal Sonata featuring many Chopin themes as part of the soundtrack (I wished it used more, by the way).
I don't understand why objective talk about music theory would sadden anyone. How would anyone learn about something if not by studying it? Study is what divides the line between amateurs and the rest, with all respect.
And I don't even consider myself an expert in the matter, but I don't know a way of talking about music that don't includes theory and analysis.
That said, however, all someone needs to know if this or that music is right for Castlevania, is just to know about Castlevania music and understand the essence.
And I'm glad to hear that about Rugal, I like his posts, and I don't have nothing against you, either, I hope this little exchange of opinions isn't interpreted as hostility :)
I'd love to quote Noah Antwiler regarding innovation:
"There's a difference between innovation and putting bacon in a milkshake."
That being said, I'm sure some people would actually LIKE the taste of bacon milkshakes. That's the strange thing with taste. I can bet that every single style and taste, there is at least ONE person out there that finds it appealing and amazing.
I know what bagatela means, we use this word here in my country.Not so much in mine, but I'm aware of it existence. It's just I didn't know how to express it in english.
I don't understand why objective talk about music theory would sadden anyone. How would anyone learn about something if not by studying it? Study is what divides the line between amateurs and the rest, with all respect.
If going by "objective talk" hate for the LoS soundtrack will be MORE unjustifable as in a pure musical sense is a GREAT soundtrack, essays could be writen on why, but the fact it won an international award in which the judges are composers talk by itself. Some of those "nobodies" include Michael Giacchino and James Newton Howard, and those people picked the LoS soundtrack over every OST in the videogame world in 2010 which had the likes of Hanz Zimmer composing Modern Warfare and Crysis 2 competing against it.
The saying, "I might not know art, but I know what I like." springs to mind. ;)And that's completely fair
Lego Universe, music by Brian Tyler
If going by "objective talk" hate for the LoS soundtrack will be MORE unjustifable as in a pure musical sense is a GREAT soundtrack, essays could be writen on why, but the fact it won an international award in which the judges are composers talk by itself. Some of those "nobodies" include Michael Giacchino and James Newton Howard, and those people picked the LoS soundtrack over every OST in the videogame world in 2010 which had the likes of Hanz Zimmer composing Modern Warfare and Crysis 2 competing against it.Who are these guys?
I'll try to make it short.
Though music theory is important, the feeling is the most important thing for me. But few musicians can achieve feelings without theory, because they simply don't know the chords and they always end up using the same chords as the basis for their compositions. Plant is a good example, but he learned by ear (by natural talent) hearing classical music, and he used that knowledge in his own works later, so he didn't study, but he learned anyway. That's the way. You can't skip classical music (or learning from other musicians with classical base). Learning by yourself just hearing and trying to copy or learning in an academy doesn't have that much difference in the end.
But the most important thing lacking is the feeling. For LoS, the Castlevania feeling. And for The Wolverine soundtrack, which was what started all this talk, any kind of feeling.
Believe me, if there's a point I don't miss, is the one about feeling. All that matters to me in the end in music is what I personally feel. But there's always a common theory pattern for that, and it's a neoclassical/baroque foundation in the chord progressions. In other words, you can't make something with feeling if the base are 3 chords repeating over and over, just as you can't make something with feeling using all major chords or all minor chords, because it would lack the dynamism and richness required to reach the soul, the heart. Plant understood that.
I'll try to make it short.
Edit: I'm sorry I couldn't make it shorter.
Who are these guys?Who? James Newton Howard and Michael Giacchino? They are two people who very likely never played a videogame in their lives and who know nothing about what videogames music is about, and who also happen to be movies music composers, one of them being great (James) and the other (Michael) one being boring, from what I've known so far.
Don't answer, I don't care. Bach, Mozart and God could say that it's the best soundtrack they ever heard and my oppinion wouldn't change. Because that's what matters for me. It all boils down to the personal appreciation of the music, if the music sounds good to the person on certain context.
EDIT: Fuck, I'm hours later. I'll keep this here anyway.
There are plenty of soulful and very feeling musicians who have no training in classical music. It may have been during Bach's era that a lot of theory "rules" were put into place that we still use today, but it goes even as far back as Pythagoras. Music is a tower with floors being built on top of each other year after year. Maybe I misunderstood you but I think it would be hard to say that various songs by the likes of Bob Marley, Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, etc. don't have feeling because they're simple and may only have 3 chords. Flamenco music is an excellent case in point. Some very very emotional music yet also very simple in a lot of cases, sometimes only consisting of two chords (and in many cases your beloved i-V-i progression haha!) There's theory involved with any music, but that doesn't mean the people making the music are actually thinking about it. I don't think about theory when I write or play (not very often anyway.)Yes and no, you misunderstood me just a little :)
There's no telling what will reach someone's soul emotionally. The same song can affect one person deeply yet affect another not at all. It's all very personal.I agree with that. It's a very personal thing.
And likewise with LoS, I feel the score DOES have that Castlevania feeling. It doesn't always give me the same feeling as older soundtracks, but it still makes me think Castlevania. I can't really quantify what gives me the Castlevania feeling in a piece of music, but I know that I could hear it in something either incredibly simple or complex. It just matters what the composer does with the piece. You don't like Araujo's music, and it's possible that Araujo hasn't ever heard a CV soundtrack before he composed the LoS OST, but in many ways, he captured what *I* personally hear in a CV soundtrack. Is it the best OST in the series? No. But it belongs there in my personal CV world.That would be more personal and I can't argue with that. For me, it does nothing. But don't misunderstand me, what I really don't like is the battles music; the ambience tracks, as I said previously some pages ago, are way better than the vast majority of Hollywood soundtracks today.
I lol'ed. ;DHaha! That was the intention of that edit :P
LoS soundtrack makes me think of LoS, that's enough, it fits the game. Period.Perhaps the same could be said of all games :P
I respectfully disagree.Yes, to be honest, it's not like the battle themes from the Devil May Cry franchise. Let's be fair. It could have been worse, if Capcom was the one making the reboot.
I think it's 'ok' in the game....
...but if I could swap it out with some stuff, say, from LoI/CoD/DXC/Pachislot, I would.
But it's not bad music (can't stress that enough).
Bob Dylan
Perhaps the same could be said of all games :P(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110512225205%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2F4%2F4b%2FDracula_dialog.jpg&hash=4f0e555e8bec32e80bbd2cbc27ce9421967872b9)
Perhaps the same could be said of all games :PYour words are as empty as..... eeh forget it :P hahaha
Who? James Newton Howard and Michael Giacchino? They are two people who very likely never played a videogame in their lives and who know nothing about what videogames music is about, and who also happen to be movies music composers, one of them being great (James) and the other (Michael) one being boring
So no, awards doesn't mean anything to me. It's not like Beethoven or Bach are choosing the winners from beneath their graves.
It's just movie composers. They can't choose their own industry awards right, why would they know what to choose about videogames music? Yuzo Koshiro, Michiru Yamane, Koji Kondo, Nobuo Uematsu, Manami Matsumae... musicians like them should be choosing the best VG soundtracks.
They know what VG music is about, and to be honest, they all have better taste than 95% of movie composers.
In other news about music I want some dang castlevania country
Though music theory is important, the feeling is the most important thing for me.
...
Those musicians you mentioned, with The Beatles on top, are masters of their own art.
I was referring, in general terms, to musicians who don't know all possibilities available, so they always end up making the same chords over and over, and if they don't have a classical base, chances are those chords will be boring...
Go and listen to Joe Satriani's magnificent 'Clouds Race Across the Sky': this is based around two chords with a solo line or two on top. It's beautiful and will take you to another place.
Most people in here are really good at music and such... while pitiful I, barely passed music class....Heheh yess I LOVE that track, it's one of my favorites :P However I'd be pissed off to hell if that was the theme of some level, however as backgroundmusic in a "jazz club" location would be extra nice.
So in short, I don't understand a lot of things mentioned here, but, Castlevania Jazz... hehehehe, I like it.
Michiru Yamane: Tachismystic Construction ~ Beginning - 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-O8PdKc7f8#)
I'm interested in this. ;)
HUGE props for mentioning Joe Satriani. A good friend of mine turned me to his work. His melodies remind me of the Bloodlines music arrangements from "Dracula Battle Perfect Selection". It's that kind of sound... that's really good and jives well with me.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110512225205%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2F4%2F4b%2FDracula_dialog.jpg&hash=4f0e555e8bec32e80bbd2cbc27ce9421967872b9)Haha! It was intentional :P
The coolest part is that this time it doesnt seemed to be intentional xD
Your words are as empty as..... eeh forget it :P hahahaMankind ill would need a composer such as...
I've no idea about James Howard but Michael Giacchino got his start in video games, actually. He did the soundtrack to the Lion King on the Genesis/SNES, Jurassic Park: The Lost World for the PS1, Medal of Honor/Underground/Allied Assault/Frontline, and the first two PC Call of Duty titles. His music, especially for MoH and Call of Duty (and I mean the first games from the late 90's/early 2000's, not latter day modern warfare stuff), were absolutely beautiful. I have no opinion on his film work, but I'd say he certainly knows something about video game music.I had no idea about that. I know some of his film works, and I find them personally light and silly in some cases and boring in others. If he did Lion King for the Genesis, that's a good one, but merit goes to Hans Zimmer, since the themes chiptuned for that game were in fact themes from the movie, that Hans Zimmer composed when he was a high art top composer. Lion King was one his first masterpieces. It's too sad what he's become now. I was one of his biggest fans some years ago. But after Pirates 3 he totally lost it for me.
The fact that you left out Motoi Sakuraba makes me a sad panda :'(I just mentioned some masters, I consider Motoi Sakuraba at the same level of those I mentioned, and I am still forgetting about other ones, I'm sure.
Dang I got to get back my music mojo gotta get back into reading the music sheets as well my casio is catching some dust :P
If your soul resonates with the music, why pooh-pooh 'simplistic' chords, and/or their repetitive use? Would bands get a free pass if they used major thirteenths or dominant 7th suspended 4ths? Do you think less of a musician, of these bands, because they use two or three chords, but may have a fantastic melody line over the top? They are reaching out to the hearts of millions of people.No, as I said, those bands and artists mentioned here are masters of their art.
Also, pray tell, which musician knows all possibilities available? When do you or I cross that line you've drawn in the sand? Can you play every instrument in the world, can you play different styles, different beat and timings, could you compose a rap song, or a genre unknown to you; could you pen lyrics and create melody lines? What if you change tuning and play three notes together which sound dissonant? Is that amateurish because you don't 'get it'?
It's art.
Even a virtuoso of an instrument will tell you they're still learning new things.
Go and listen to Joe Satriani's magnificent 'Clouds Race Across the Sky': this is based around two chords with a solo line or two on top. It's beautiful and will take you to another place.
Good shout out on jazz! :)
I doesn't matter if the same chord progression is repetetive or goes off into the wilds, as long as it strikes the most IMPORTANT chord, the resonation with people, it's done it's job. I still believe, with all my heart, regarding music, the appealing aspect is greater than that of the technical aspect. It's about what you like, what sounds good, what makes you feel good(be it technically complex or simplistic). That, I believe, is the most inportant aspect to all forms of artistic expression.It's very subjective when it comes to personal tastes, yes.
Most people in here are really good at music and such... while pitiful I, barely passed music class....Michiru Yamane is very influenced by jazz. Symphony of the Night featured many jazz-based themes.
So in short, I don't understand a lot of things mentioned here, but, Castlevania Jazz... hehehehe, I like it.
I'm interested in this. ;)
Hey Pfil, this one is for you :PThanks for sharing :)
Most people in here are really good at music and such... while pitiful I, barely passed music class....
So in short, I don't understand a lot of things mentioned here, but, Castlevania Jazz... hehehehe, I like it.
Michiru Yamane: Tachismystic Construction ~ Beginning - 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-O8PdKc7f8#)
I'm interested in this. ;)