Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [ID] Topic: Castlevania Season 3  (Read 24982 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DraculaCronqvist

  • Demon King
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Gender: Male
  • I shall give you the answer along with your death!
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #255 on: March 21, 2020, 08:14:23 AM »
0
🤷. We've fought several monsters with "holy" based power in the games.  Doesn't seem any different to me...

I think you have to look at it from a perspective of holy/of God =/= necessary good.

This would be true for the games, as well. There are some enemies in the game who make use of light/holy magic, yet fight for Dracula. It follows that holyness, in Castlevania, is a separate thing from god, while mostly associated with him. Furthermore, given that Castlevania is very much Europe and Christianity seen through a Japanese lense, god is a very intangible concept from the get-go. Far less than in fundamental Christianity, the Japanese view the christian god as a concept or idea, rather than a literal person of unlimited power. It could even be reasoned that, in the games, the christian god doesn't exist or is just some force, rather than a literal thing.
"It's not that I don't love to run into the heart of danger... Actually, that's exactly it."
"Individualism is a path fraught with obstacles, and sometimes angry mobs, but for all its hardships it is the only one worth taking."

Offline AlexCalvo

  • The man.
  • Legendary Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 533
  • Gender: Male
  • No longer a jerk, but still wonderful.
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #256 on: March 21, 2020, 10:44:50 AM »
0
This would be true for the games, as well. There are some enemies in the game who make use of light/holy magic, yet fight for Dracula. It follows that holyness, in Castlevania, is a separate thing from god, while mostly associated with him. Furthermore, given that Castlevania is very much Europe and Christianity seen through a Japanese lense, god is a very intangible concept from the get-go. Far less than in fundamental Christianity, the Japanese view the christian god as a concept or idea, rather than a literal person of unlimited power. It could even be reasoned that, in the games, the christian god doesn't exist or is just some force, rather than a literal thing.

True.  I've never taken to the idea that just because crosses and holy water work against monsters, that that means the Bible and Christianity is 100% accurate.  Especially given that we've seen items from other cultures/religions that work as well.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2411
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #257 on: March 21, 2020, 12:28:17 PM »
0
i don't see why we're citing the games as evidence for this given the first two seasons of the show have considerably different world rules for this kinda thing


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline DraculaCronqvist

  • Demon King
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Gender: Male
  • I shall give you the answer along with your death!
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #258 on: March 21, 2020, 01:15:31 PM »
0
i don't see why we're citing the games as evidence for this given the first two seasons of the show have considerably different world rules for this kinda thing

Because it is fun to do.
Because others have done so before.
Because this thread is for speculation, discussion and general juxtaposition.
That the lore from the show is different from those of the games has been well-established by now.
I fail to see why you need to bring this up now of all times.
"It's not that I don't love to run into the heart of danger... Actually, that's exactly it."
"Individualism is a path fraught with obstacles, and sometimes angry mobs, but for all its hardships it is the only one worth taking."

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2411
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #259 on: March 21, 2020, 01:43:52 PM »
0
because it was explicitly a topic about the rules of holy and unholy power within the context of the show and "well the games did it" doesn't explore how it applies under the show's world rules, and i was operating under the assumption we were going to discuss it within the framework of the show because it's quite clear by this point that the games don't hold a lot of water when it comes to explaining/rationalizing elements of the show

you know what isn't fun to do?

introducing a (comparatively) harmless confliction of perspective and getting patronized for it with premises everyone already knows by someone with a one-sided axe to grind who typically prefers to downvote just about anything i do post

it's no small wonder why i've taken to not really contributing anything meaningful to this thread/site anymore

now enact whatever this grudge you seem to have is and slap a downvote on this, i've got an image to maintain


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline DraculaCronqvist

  • Demon King
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Gender: Male
  • I shall give you the answer along with your death!
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #260 on: March 21, 2020, 01:50:02 PM »
0
because it was explicitly a topic about the rules of holy and unholy power within the context of the show and "well the games did it" doesn't explore how it applies under the show's world rules, and i was operating under the assumption we were going to discuss it within the framework of the show because it's quite clear by this point that the games don't hold a lot of water when it comes to explaining/rationalizing elements of the show

you know what isn't fun to do?

introducing a (comparatively) harmless confliction of perspective and getting patronized for it with premises everyone already knows by someone with a one-sided axe to grind who typically prefers to downvote just about anything i do post

it's no small wonder why i've taken to not really contributing anything meaningful to this thread/site anymore

now enact whatever this grudge you seem to have is and slap a downvote on this, i've got an image to maintain

The image of being a condescending hardass who seems to make low-blow comments whenever I post something? When I posted something about expressing worries about Dracula's absense from the show, you immediately posted something mockingly about that, despite, as expected, nothing coming of Dracula's resurrection plot in S3 (yet?).

I seriously suggest you remove that chip from your shoulder and let go of whatever problem you have with me. That I downvoted something of yours is due to your condescending attitude that I can't stand and that you constantly seem to direct at not only me but other select people, too. It's getting old.
"It's not that I don't love to run into the heart of danger... Actually, that's exactly it."
"Individualism is a path fraught with obstacles, and sometimes angry mobs, but for all its hardships it is the only one worth taking."

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2411
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #261 on: March 21, 2020, 02:10:10 PM »
0
that post wasn't directed explicitly at you nor really even as a jab, as you weren't the only person i'd seen that had expressed that concern in the fanbase at large, and while i did end up being wrong the idea of being worried about absence of a character whose actor was at that point still on the castlist was something i found a little silly at the time

yes, i was wrong about the importance of grant's inclusion on the casting, but i wasn't exactly anticipating them to pull a fast one and have him on there knowing it would give impressions they weren't keeping

is an admittance of being wrong and apology for something not aimed at you what you're wanting? if that please you then yes, i was wrong and i apologize for making what to me was a light joke and not accounting for how it might read to others

i'm not sure what this chip you're referring to is, i don't actually have any beef with you, hence my confusion about whatever this vendetta you seem like you have is

if i have any chip it's related to the entire fanbase at large and how it handles certain things, and that's obviously not something that can be targeted at individual people and is also largely useless to fight against so i've learnt to mostly just deal with it because it's just ingrained at this point

i've been deliberately distancing and limiting my posts mostly to shitposts and brief statements so as not to get as involved or heated as i did in the past for the sake of not being or coming across as condescending as i've been known to, if that wasn't clear from my severely cut-back posting habits

it's good to know at least one person is proving that i've been wasting my time trying to be better, though

i'm aware this will sound fairly gaslight-y but there's no way i can think of the phrase it otherwise so please forgive it:

i've been over here limiting my interactions and trying to improve on past mistakes (fully aware that it's a slow-going and not happening overnight), and the same kind of retaliations are being thrown at me like nothing is different from a year-plus ago, and you're going to tell me something's getting old?

i don't know what you people want from me at this point, short of leaving the site altogether which if this stigma continues is starting to seem like a very appealing option


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline DraculaCronqvist

  • Demon King
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Gender: Male
  • I shall give you the answer along with your death!
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #262 on: March 21, 2020, 02:22:53 PM »
0
that post wasn't directed explicitly at you nor really even as a jab, as you weren't the only person i'd seen that had expressed that concern in the fanbase at large, and while i did end up being wrong the idea of being worried about absence of a character whose actor was at that point still on the castlist was something i found a little silly at the time

yes, i was wrong about the importance of grant's inclusion on the casting, but i wasn't exactly anticipating them to pull a fast one and have him on there knowing it would give impressions they weren't keeping

is an admittance of being wrong and apology for something not aimed at you what you're wanting? if that please you then yes, i was wrong and i apologize for making what to me was a light joke and not accounting for how it might read to others

i'm not sure what this chip you're referring to is, i don't actually have any beef with you, hence my confusion about whatever this vendetta you seem like you have is

if i have any chip it's related to the entire fanbase at large and how it handles certain things, and that's obviously not something that can be targeted at individual people and is also largely useless to fight against so i've learnt to mostly just deal with it because it's just ingrained at this point

i've been deliberately distancing and limiting my posts mostly to shitposts and brief statements so as not to get as involved or heated as i did in the past for the sake of not being or coming across as condescending as i've been known to, if that wasn't clear from my severely cut-back posting habits

it's good to know at least one person is proving that i've been wasting my time trying to be better, though

i'm aware this will sound fairly gaslight-y but there's no way i can think of the phrase it otherwise so please forgive it:

i've been over here limiting my interactions and trying to improve on past mistakes (fully aware that it's a slow-going and not happening overnight), and the same kind of retaliations are being thrown at me like nothing is different from a year-plus ago, and you're going to tell me something's getting old?

i don't know what you people want from me at this point, short of leaving the site altogether which if this stigma continues is starting to seem like a very appealing option

I can only speak for myself, but the reason why I have never been all that active here is precicely because those brief statements always seem to be a jab against me. I also find it disingenous to play the victim card when you opened the floodgates on this by making shitposts and devaluing other people's concerns. Only a few posts ago, Lashen was criticised for this behavior but when somebody criticises you for this, it is suddenly unacceptable? I have not downvoted anything of yours that contributed to the discussion, but I am not ashamed of downvoting a comment that I feel serves only to degrade other people's opinions - your posts are not the only ones getting down- or upvotes from me.

I honestly thought we had moved past this long ago. I'm sad to see that it is apparently not so.
"It's not that I don't love to run into the heart of danger... Actually, that's exactly it."
"Individualism is a path fraught with obstacles, and sometimes angry mobs, but for all its hardships it is the only one worth taking."

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2411
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #263 on: March 21, 2020, 02:38:05 PM »
0
i'm not really intending to play victim, just making clear where i am in relation to this forum, but i admit it's pretty much impossible to do the latter without looking like i'm doing the former

i don't really understand how my switching to unserious and shitposts is really "opening floodgates" when the entire point was to change posting habits to something i'd only rarely done before to see if it made a difference in how i came across

if the issue is that some of those posts are being taken as insults, there's only so much i can do there as everything is cause for offense by someone and i'm not psychic -- and regardless of whether it's mean-spirited or not in its delivery, i just am a smartass as a person, so it's kind of a damned if i do and damned if i don't scenario in that respect

yes, i'm aware of the contextual differences between lashen's group response and mine, but i don't know offhand if lashen has quite the same history in this territory as i do, and that history does alter one's approach a bit

frankly i'm not even really saying it's unacceptable -- the statute of being better not happening overnight applies as much to public response as it does my own efforts -- but when i'm making those efforts to move past old wounds and am getting negative responses from people i previously thought i was cool and had no real beef with...

...well, it kinda becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy in that the self-deprecating jokes about my "image" stems almost entirely from folks still treating me as if that image is all that i am, despite a significant lack in any of the fights or incidents that i've been infamous for in the past and thus considerable lack of any reason to react as if i had been involved in any

it's kinda a case where my steps to try and be better than i was get a response that i'm still just That Asshole, so i just sarcastically accept my social role as The Asshole and "invite" it because the impression is clearly that nothing i do is going to change anyone's minds and the version of me other people come up with is not my responsibility, so fuck it why not just go back to being The Asshole? (i'd really rather not willingly ramp back to where i was, and am not planning to, but this is kinda where my train of thought has been slowly mulling over)

you say it's sad that you thought we were past this and seemingly aren't? that's literally where i'm at and have been since the initial influx of downvotes and (to me) seemingly out of nowhere admonishments started up again


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline DraculaCronqvist

  • Demon King
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Gender: Male
  • I shall give you the answer along with your death!
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #264 on: March 21, 2020, 02:42:06 PM »
0
i'm not really intending to play victim, just making clear where i am in relation to this forum, but i admit it's pretty much impossible to do the latter without looking like i'm doing the former

i don't really understand how my switching to unserious and shitposts is really "opening floodgates" when the entire point was to change posting habits to something i'd only rarely done before to see if it made a difference in how i came across

if the issue is that some of those posts are being taken as insults, there's only so much i can do there as everything is cause for offense by someone and i'm not psychic -- and regardless of whether it's mean-spirited or not in its delivery, i just am a smartass as a person, so it's kind of a damned if i do and damned if i don't scenario in that respect

yes, i'm aware of the contextual differences between lashen's group response and mine, but i don't know offhand if lashen has quite the same history in this territory as i do, and that history does alter one's approach a bit

frankly i'm not even really saying it's unacceptable -- the statute of being better not happening overnight applies as much to public response as it does my own efforts -- but when i'm making those efforts to move past old wounds and am getting negative responses from people i previously thought i was cool and had no real beef with...

...well, it kinda becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy in that the self-deprecating jokes about my "image" stems almost entirely from folks still treating me as if that image is all that i am, despite a significant lack in any of the fights or incidents that i've been infamous for in the past and thus considerable lack of any reason to react as if i had been involved in any

it's kinda a case where my steps to try and be better than i was get a response that i'm still just That Asshole, so i just sarcastically accept my social role as The Asshole and "invite" it because the impression is clearly that nothing i do is going to change anyone's minds and the version of me other people come up with is not my responsibility, so fuck it why not just go back to being The Asshole? (i'd really rather not willingly ramp back to where i was, and am not planning to, but this is kinda where my train of thought has been slowly mulling over)

you say it's sad that you thought we were past this and seemingly aren't? that's literally where i'm at and have been since the initial influx of downvotes and (to me) seemingly out of nowhere admonishments started up again

Well, then all I can suggest is that we leave it at that, try to get on topic again and, if need be, continue this via PM.
"It's not that I don't love to run into the heart of danger... Actually, that's exactly it."
"Individualism is a path fraught with obstacles, and sometimes angry mobs, but for all its hardships it is the only one worth taking."

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2411
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #265 on: March 21, 2020, 02:44:48 PM »
+2
fair, and probably good to end the derail

so waffle how long before you start having fanfic field days with the vampiress council?


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

  • Specialist in Revolutions, Smuggling, Gunrunning, Bootlegging, and Orgies
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1893
  • Simon is finally coming to goddamn Smash
  • Awards Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania 64 (N64)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #266 on: March 21, 2020, 03:04:06 PM »
+1
so waffle how long before you start having fanfic field days with the vampiress council?

I assure you, just because it hasn't hit you yet is no guarantee it hasn't happened.
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline SecretWeapon

  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #267 on: March 22, 2020, 07:50:14 PM »
0
MariaXCarmilla, MariaXLenore MariaXStriga&Morana

Offline AlexCalvo

  • The man.
  • Legendary Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 533
  • Gender: Male
  • No longer a jerk, but still wonderful.
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #268 on: March 22, 2020, 09:14:37 PM »
0
i don't see why we're citing the games as evidence for this given the first two seasons of the show have considerably different world rules for this kinda thing

Oh come on man... This concept has not been touched on in the show before this.  There were no rules set up for it. Until we saw a demon monster using holy magic, people say that makes no sense, we say that's right out of the games...  Acting like this has no bearing because the show is different is just... Stupid.  That's like saying "how come he's using a whip?". And lambasting when someone says it's because they did in the games.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

Offline Dracula9

  • That One Guy
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2411
  • Gender: Male
  • Blargh
  • Awards 2015-01-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-12-Music Contest Gold Prize 2014-11-November FinalBoss Sprite Contest 2nd Place Winner A great musician and composer of various melodies both original and game-based. 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: Castlevania Season 3
« Reply #269 on: March 23, 2020, 12:46:00 AM »
+2
short version:

"your differing opinion is stupid"

good talk

long version:

Quote
This concept has not been touched on in the show before this.  There were no rules set up for it.

-whip kills night creatures, explicitly stated to be denizens of hell which in this universe is an actual place, because it's consecrated and not because it has a soul tainted with vampirism willingly giving it the power to harm demonic entities like it is in the games

-holy water also harms night creatures for the same premise of reason

using the collaborative information of the above, it can be very reasonably inferred with considerable confidence that items or substances consecrated or blessed by some source of faith in a holy and divine manner, in the case of the show this applies to at LEAST christianity

as the show never outright confirms or denies the existence of the abrahamic god or the christian satan (or any deity really), but does confirm the existence of hell (which could very well simply be an underworld of the demonic races, but given its strong similarities to dante's hell in S3 i'm on the fence on this one), it can also be reasonably assumed that clearly some form of "divine" power does exist but may simply be powered by faith or belief and this is what does the job

so we have multiple cases of items outright confirmed to be blessed in some fashion with some form of holy power which harms and repels anything unholy or demonic, this is what i'll call Point 1

now fast forward to the S1 bishop

we see him tell bluefangs that demons cannot enter a house of god

now, obviously the bishop was an evil bastard who cannot be trusted to be a man of true belief and he shouldn't entirely take him at his word, but the immediacy with which he refers to this suggests that the very idea of unholy creatures entering a church is something unheard-of -- presumably because, like the above instances, a church is consecrated ground and would kill demons just as well as a blessed whip

bluefangs also seems to confirm this premise by responding that said church is "an empty box"

now obviously he could just as easily be mocking the bishop and i think largely this is what he's doing, but with all the above information i also choose to believe there's a small ring of truth to the statement, in that yes, in a non-horrifyingly-corrupt setting a demon entering a "true" church's grounds would be cause for pain and/or death but the absence of any god in that particular church (due to the actions of the bishop "making [god] puke" causing any former holiness of the site to dry up like a well in the desert) eliminates this risk

the above is very much a bit of a stretch and i'm relying on it because it just happens to enforce my interpretation, but i also do willingly concede it's just as likely to be true that bluefangs was simply mocking the bishop's empty words

the above about the "no demons in church" clause of reality is Point 2

under the previous inferences and assumptions (which i'd like to reiterate aren't entirely unreasonable or ill-founded, but i'm also not claiming them as the sole interpretation either), we have established "world rules" for the following, with varying degrees of how "set" they are within the world:

-objects can be blessed/consecrated with holy power which can cause significant harm to any force of dark or demonic alignment
-some form of underworld exists as a literal plane of reality, regardless of whether or not it's literally the christian hell or is simply called that
-all night creatures are, in essence, demonic creatures/souls that come from that underworld
-there exists some form of opposing force of divine or holy power, regardless of whether or not it's literally the abrahamic god or is simply called that
-demonic entities cannot be in the direct presence of any object or place which has such consecration or blessing without risking harm to themselves
-the lack of any concrete confirmation or denial of the existences of any god or satan figures suggests these forces may simply be freefloating and the act of genuine belief in blessing is what gives things their power, but once they're imbued with it they may not necessarily be bound to being USED solely by those of belief (as trevor's not exactly a godly man, but can still use the whips just fine), unless something occurs which robs them of that power (see: bluefangs in church)

now, onto the bishop zombie blessing the river

let's look at the bishop

prior to death and reanimation:

-false prophet, cares only about furthering his own power and ambitions

-doesn't give two shits about anyone but himself and will step on anyone he feels necessary to achieve the above

-cannot be considered a "true" man of faith as his motivations are selfish and his priestly exterior just a facade

-"believes" certain things of his faith system, but only insofar as to whether they directly benefit him (see examples below)
+++++doesn't "believe" demons can enter a church until he himself is hiding in one alone, fuck everyone else outside
+++++puts on airs of being a genuine man of the cloth, until he's alone and needs to monologue or until someone (trevor) calls him out on his bullshit
+++++had an innocent executed because she threatened his position, but only justified it as "god's will, she's a witch" when in the presence of others

-every word that quotes, refers to, or deals with any aspect of his faith, the god he claims, or scripture is entirely lip service and empty words which lack any of the belief necessary to actually have any power (unrelated reference, gabula out-praying the paladin in lords of shit 2's epic rap battle is actually a good example of this principle, if anyone needs a reference of what i mean illustrated more easily than my wordiness probably is)

after death and reanimation:

-bishop is now an unholy night creature in being resurrected as a zombie
-as a night creature, he is now subject to all of the world rules i've explained and they actually get this mostly right as the blessed river also burns him

now this is where the fucking problem is

you have, first and FOREmost, a zombie saying a prayer of consecration and blessing an entire river into a metric fuckload of monster-b-gone juice

beyond that, you have the bigger issue: a zombie made from a man who was a false prophet in every sense of the word, had no true belief or faith in any god but his own avarice, regularly spread falsehoods and lies and plenty of empty words citing scripture and god and holiness he never meant to further his own political position and power over the peasant class...and this is the zombie that is successfully consecrating holy water

this, to me, is a massive issue because it's more or less saying one of two thing:

-either the bishop actually did in the deepest cockles of his black little heart believe in god and somehow had enough embers of real faith to make the shit happen
-faith doesn't actually fucking matter and anyone who knows the right words and can say them in the right order can perform what wouldn't be unfair to call miracles

and neither one of these makes any goddamn sense considering all the other instances of this subject matter in the show that contradict both outcomes

if knowing the words is all that matters, then why the fuck aren't the heroes just learning and consecrating literally everything down to a shitload of pebbles that you can just toss at a demon and instantly kill it? i'm sure if it were that easy they'd have found something about it in the belmont library and the importance of the whips being consecrated wouldn't matter as much

if the bishop DOES still somehow have enough real faith left in his now-demonic shambling corpse to pull off a literal miracle, then what was the purpose of going WELL above and beyond to pound "the church is bad, and this guy is just everything bad about it (barring the pedo shit, we had to wait another two seasons for that, ugh) wrapped up in one package LOOK GUYS HE'S A PRIEST AND HE'S FUCKING EVIL AS SHIT" into our heads the entire first season

so since neither "explanation" makes any sense lined up against other instances of same/similar material extrapolated in the show, the idea of a zombie of a bishop who was about the most faithless son of a bitch you could hope to meet successfully managing to turn an ENTIRE RIVER into holy water on demand really strikes me as a noticeable moment of "hold up a second" in the series amidst the MANY others

(personally i think they just really wanted to upsell that "yeah, carmilla can do THINGS and she's MILDLY competent and formulates BRILLIANT plans using logic a grade-schooler could come up with" aspect and didn't put much thought into how they did it and thought the bishop being zombified would be a cool gatcha moment, but that's just me)

so yeah, taking all the above into consideration, which i think even if you don't agree with whether or not my points really count as "rules" for the world there's enough there to at least be cause for further discussion, and considering all of the above explicitly uses material from the show to draw connections and contradictions from, you can hopefully see why "well the games did it that way" didn't exactly strike me as much more than a handwave that contributed practically nothing and addressed no elements of what i was talking about

Quote
Until we saw a demon monster using holy magic, people say that makes no sense, we say that's right out of the games...  Acting like this has no bearing because the show is different is just... Stupid.  That's like saying "how come he's using a whip?". And lambasting when someone says it's because they did in the games.

so as you'll now clearly be able to tell, i actually have fucking reasons and entire breakdowns that form the bases for opinions i have, and i'm not just making shit up on the fly or not having any kind of rationale for what i think

i might have been able to explain all this thought process much sooner if i hadn't immediately had my shit jumped, but i'll just assume you've read all that business and know at least up until now why i'd not been making lengthy breakdown posts like this for things

is a lot of my speculation probably reading too far into a script that only barely approaches such levels of depth at its best? most likely, but as cronq put it very well just a few posts ago -- i find it fun, and it's kind of the point of threads and discussions like this

hell, i don't even care whether or not anyone even AGREES with this whole big thought process, that's y'all's right to decide yourselves, but to fucking sit there and call something i've said stupid on the faulty-at-best assumption that i'm just being contrarian for the sake of it or whatever you thought?

that, to me, seems a hell of a lot more stupid, right up there with the idea that if something isn't plainly and directly stated verbatim then it obviously cannot exist or have potential narrative elements suggesting the larger premise without needing to hand it to audiences on a plate (not that i'm saying warren is necessarily doing this with CV, mind you, but you jumped pretty fucking immediately to putting words in my mouth (eRmAhGeRd WhY bELmOnt UsE wHiP) under this very premise)

now on a significantly more pleasant note:

MariaXStriga&Morana

yes

MariaXLenore

a shitload more yes
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 01:07:02 AM by Dracula9 »


Trøllabundin eri eg, inn í hjartarót.

Tags:
 

anything